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Curlyy's Criticisms towards Coalitions

Curlyy

Member
Slicer
You like the alliteration? Yes.

Coalitions were brought around to end a dry season of conquest on Loka, which to an extent it did. The problem was that continent capitals didn't want to fight on balak if they were just going to lose. There are three clear powers on loka, and the problem created by coalitions is that Balak turns into what is essentially a "2v1", creating an obvious unbalance on the Balak. This means balak is no longer about determining the strongest alliance on Loka, but is instead only proving what we already know. Two strong alliances will always beat one strong alliance.

Conquest is supposed to be pvp based, the town with the best pvpers and strategy wins. But now it's become a hopeless game of who can recruit the most people. I really don't believe this is in the spirit of Loka. New players pouring in at a rate the server can't support, the consistent player base and memorable faces are what makes loka feel like loka, and in the rush to recruit I believe the welcoming atmosphere of loka has been put at a detriment.

The fights are totally one sided, no matter how much effort we put into teaching new players how to play, no matter what strategies we put into place it's all useless when getting rundown by countless enemy forces. It doesn't matter how good at pvp you are, there's nothing you can do to combat it. It's really demoralizing to look on eldritch bot after every fight and seeing how outnumbered you were after every fight and just knowing there was no hope to begin with. New players - who would probably enjoy the server are being driven away by these one-sided fights, thinking it's the only thing loka has to offer. It's kind of upsetting knowing that loka isn't getting shown in it's best light, especially after experiencing how fun and great it can really be.

This would be an awful experience for any alliance, not just wolf force, and I can't see any combination as it is that wouldn't result in one alliance being singled out and totally outnumbered. This would be reasonable if one town was OVERWHELMINGLY more powerful than all the others, but that just isn't the case. There is no fourth alliance that the odd alliance out can coalesce with, since rivina winner doesn't move onto Balak.

In addition to this wolf force has it hard as is, as there are no active staff members on our side. We have noone to vouch for us, and this forum post will likely go overlooked as there is no staff with our best interest in mind, unlike what covenexa has right now.

The existence of coalitions also makes it impossible to just have a town with just your friends. Why do we have to recruit so many people we don't know just to have a chance? I would be less bothered if fights were closer, even if we lost. Because then we could have a good time and still have fun, but getting absolutely steam-rolled every time you try to do something is just genuinely not fun.

I'm not suggesting here that we totally get rid of coalitions, because then conquest would stop again. But a coalition shouldn't be as all-powerful as it is now. I think buffing the individual alliance so that they have a chance, or letting the rivina winner join a coalition so that the individual town has backup would be preferable. By the end of every fight we have, after our quick-drops have died, we're left with what is essentially a 5v60. That doesn't scream fair to me, I'm not gonna' lie.

Ultimately, Loka wasn't built for 100 player fights. It's laggy, the core is too small, and no town can easily support such a mass of new players. People shouldn't be able to stay charged for upwards of a minute when the server is too laggy (even if they have the buff for 30 seconds charged). Pot lag makes it next to impossible for most players not to quick-drop and there are so many complications with the bigger fights it just ends up frustrating. It's not fun. At the end of the day, we gain nothing real from winning, it doesn't mean anything. We're just here to have fun, and how it is now makes that impossible.
 

GeekyKidGamer

Active Member
If there was a thing implemented, like them only being able to bring the number of people we bring, or them having a longer warp time, it would be fair, that or remove the core when you're attacking, cuz the inhib doesn't need a core.
 

Cappur

Member
Slicer
I have two potential suggestions of how this can be remedied based on what Geeky said but a bit more detail, feel free to discuss them:

1. Make a hard cap of how many people each side can have on the battlefield.

This one is pretty self-explanatory. Control how many people can go to each fight. The max can be like 40v40 or 50v50 (whatever the server can comfortably handle). If the attacking side is outnumbered there is literally nothing that can be done due to the lag the server has with 100 player fights and the difficulty of taking the core/easiness to drop an inhib.

2. Adjust the warp time for coalitions.

This could go with the hard cap idea or be its own thing. As an example, lets say that Wolf Force (the currently outnumbered alliance) has a warp time of 5 minutes to a fight. Since covnexa (the current coalition) has significantly more people and resources than WF, they should have a longer warp time. (Since 2 alliances are in it, make it 7.5 minutes or 10 minutes, which is 1.5x or 2x longer warp time) This would definitely balance the numerical disadvantage coalitions bring to the server by making them wait longer to get back into battle.
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
It's worth noting that Coalitions were agreed upon by both Covenexa and Wolf Force to spice up Balak this month. It was more of a quick addition to let there be spice on Balak, however I don't believe they're the right way to go either.

There will likely be more discussions about this for May.
 

GeekyKidGamer

Active Member
It's worth noting that Coalitions were agreed upon by both Covenexa and Wolf Force to spice up Balak this month. It was more of a quick addition to let there be spice on Balak, however I don't believe they're the right way to go either.

There will likely be more discussions about this for May.
where was this agreed upon?
 

TheFreshLemon

Well-Known Member
Slicer
It's worth noting that Coalitions were agreed upon by both Covenexa and Wolf Force to spice up Balak this month. It was more of a quick addition to let there be spice on Balak, however I don't believe they're the right way to go either.

There will likely be more discussions about this for May.
Covnexa had a whole discussion post on beachheads that anyone could reply to, but coalitions didn't get this. As Curlyy said "In addition to this wolf force has it hard as is, as there are no active staff members on our side." So how could they have accepted this?? What about other people as well who could have added their ideas and problems they may have seen in this?
 

FoxyBearGames

Well-Known Member
Guardian
You like the alliteration? Yes.

Coalitions were brought around to end a dry season of conquest on Loka, which to an extent it did. The problem was that continent capitals didn't want to fight on balak if they were just going to lose. There are three clear powers on loka, and the problem created by coalitions is that Balak turns into what is essentially a "2v1", creating an obvious unbalance on the Balak. This means balak is no longer about determining the strongest alliance on Loka, but is instead only proving what we already know. Two strong alliances will always beat one strong alliance.

Conquest is supposed to be pvp based, the town with the best pvpers and strategy wins. But now it's become a hopeless game of who can recruit the most people. I really don't believe this is in the spirit of Loka. New players pouring in at a rate the server can't support, the consistent player base and memorable faces are what makes loka feel like loka, and in the rush to recruit I believe the welcoming atmosphere of loka has been put at a detriment.

The fights are totally one sided, no matter how much effort we put into teaching new players how to play, no matter what strategies we put into place it's all useless when getting rundown by countless enemy forces. It doesn't matter how good at pvp you are, there's nothing you can do to combat it. It's really demoralizing to look on eldritch bot after every fight and seeing how outnumbered you were after every fight and just knowing there was no hope to begin with. New players - who would probably enjoy the server are being driven away by these one-sided fights, thinking it's the only thing loka has to offer. It's kind of upsetting knowing that loka isn't getting shown in it's best light, especially after experiencing how fun and great it can really be.

This would be an awful experience for any alliance, not just wolf force, and I can't see any combination as it is that wouldn't result in one alliance being singled out and totally outnumbered. This would be reasonable if one town was OVERWHELMINGLY more powerful than all the others, but that just isn't the case. There is no fourth alliance that the odd alliance out can coalesce with, since rivina winner doesn't move onto Balak.

In addition to this wolf force has it hard as is, as there are no active staff members on our side. We have noone to vouch for us, and this forum post will likely go overlooked as there is no staff with our best interest in mind, unlike what covenexa has right now.

The existence of coalitions also makes it impossible to just have a town with just your friends. Why do we have to recruit so many people we don't know just to have a chance? I would be less bothered if fights were closer, even if we lost. Because then we could have a good time and still have fun, but getting absolutely steam-rolled every time you try to do something is just genuinely not fun.

I'm not suggesting here that we totally get rid of coalitions, because then conquest would stop again. But a coalition shouldn't be as all-powerful as it is now. I think buffing the individual alliance so that they have a chance, or letting the rivina winner join a coalition so that the individual town has backup would be preferable. By the end of every fight we have, after our quick-drops have died, we're left with what is essentially a 5v60. That doesn't scream fair to me, I'm not gonna' lie.

Ultimately, Loka wasn't built for 100 player fights. It's laggy, the core is too small, and no town can easily support such a mass of new players. People shouldn't be able to stay charged for upwards of a minute when the server is too laggy (even if they have the buff for 30 seconds charged). Pot lag makes it next to impossible for most players not to quick-drop and there are so many complications with the bigger fights it just ends up frustrating. It's not fun. At the end of the day, we gain nothing real from winning, it doesn't mean anything. We're just here to have fun, and how it is now makes that impossible.
I can certainly agreee- being in Los Alamos and getting ganked by the Covenant in a wilds fight is ridiculous only because of the fact that they are scared that they're getting overtaken by your alliance, and in turn, losing their Coalition. If coalitions are going to work- we need more than 3 continents, and somehow fix the imbalance of power.
 

Sparky___

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Covnexa had a whole discussion post on beachheads that anyone could reply to, but coalitions didn't get this. As Curlyy said "In addition to this wolf force has it hard as is, as there are no active staff members on our side." So how could they have accepted this?? What about other people as well who could have added their ideas and problems they may have seen in this?

Boy do I have just the thing for you!


Numerous (and I cannot stress that word enough) discussions were had regarding coalitions, mostly via LCRs. LCRs are meant to bridge the gap mentioned.
 

TheFreshLemon

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Boy do I have just the thing for you!


Numerous (and I cannot stress that word enough) discussions were had regarding coalitions, mostly via LCRs. LCRs are meant to bridge the gap mentioned.
^^ What diego said. My point was that the beachheads discussion was open to the public and that ANYONE could have spoken on it, Coalitions didn't get this.
 

koi0001

Well-Known Member
Guardian
Beachheads doesn't look like such a bad idea now, does it? ;)

The fights are totally one sided, no matter how much effort we put into teaching new players how to play, no matter what strategies we put into place it's all useless when getting rundown by countless enemy forces. It doesn't matter how good at pvp you are, there's nothing you can do to combat it. It's really demoralizing to look on eldritch bot after every fight and seeing how outnumbered you were after every fight and just knowing there was no hope to begin with. New players - who would probably enjoy the server are being driven away by these one-sided fights, thinking it's the only thing loka has to offer. It's kind of upsetting knowing that loka isn't getting shown in it's best light, especially after experiencing how fun and great it can really be.

Ultimately, Loka wasn't built for 100 player fights. It's laggy, the core is too small, and no town can easily support such a mass of new players. People shouldn't be able to stay charged for upwards of a minute when the server is too laggy (even if they have the buff for 30 seconds charged). Pot lag makes it next to impossible for most players not to quick-drop and there are so many complications with the bigger fights it just ends up frustrating. It's not fun. At the end of the day, we gain nothing real from winning, it doesn't mean anything. We're just here to have fun, and how it is now makes that impossible.

Both of beachheads & Balak fights face a lot of the same issues, just saying got the sake of argument
 

Jammin_Mas

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Boy do I have just the thing for you!


Numerous (and I cannot stress that word enough) discussions were had regarding coalitions, mostly via LCRs. LCRs are meant to bridge the gap mentioned.

While there may have been numerous different discussions going on. I don't feel like there was enough time to get adequate responses regarding coalitions.

I was approached by Magpie on March 23rd about the idea of coalitions he got from one of the "groups" he talked to. I organized a call with some of the higher alliance members about the idea and brought up concerns/positives that could come from this. The beachhead conversation was a months long discussion, our side felt like we only had a few days to decide about coalitions so despite alot of concerns among the group we said sure so the server becomes more active again. Looking back at it I wish I spent more time considering the different scenarios of this being implemented. After talking to the guys I sent some counters to mag in a DM about concerns with the implementation of coalitions. You can see our conversation here.

1586983634257.png

So yes, Curlyy and Cappur both did a great job talking about some of the issues that I brought forth from the beginning. Allowing twice as many towns to ally usually means twice as many players playing. The main issue here is numbers. Asking one continent to pull 60+ players to be relevant just isn't happening. I love the recent activity on the server however I don't think this is a good solution in the long run. I don't feel like Wolf Force alliance from the months of March and February was as controlling and dominant as the current coalition implementation is. We were basically the Old Valyria group but on Kalros. I like the recent activity of the server its very nice to see, however this just not right solution and needs some serious changes.

On a side note I do really enjoy the bountiful attacks. Besides the lag during the massive fights, I think that is a great implementation to the server.
 

Haldyir

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Having an open forum where people can participate in these talks even if it just one time could be a way for people to voice themselves. (Yes that’s why we voted for LCRs) Just saying it can be effective for the sake of people’s voices being heard. Maybe limit people to like 1 minutes per talking point depending on how many people come to it. It could be in a State or the Server styled format. Just a thought though.
 

Jammin_Mas

Well-Known Member
Slicer
Having an open forum where people can participate in these talks even if it just one time could be a way for people to voice themselves. (Yes that’s why we voted for LCRs) Just saying it can be effective for the sake of people’s voices being heard. Maybe limit people to like 1 minutes per talking point depending on how many people come to it. It could be in a State or the Server styled format. Just a thought though.

I say just pile onto this post. Its a great conversation thats already been started so I would keep it going by posting your thoughts and such.
 

ReformedPheonix

Member
Slicer
Coalitions were just a poor fix to a bigger problem that is balak there is no incentive to make your own town and win on your own when theres no chance you'll be able to get balak buffs

EDIT*: Balak needs a rework and while it could be interesting to use it to determine world cap, i dont think powerful policies should be included with it
 
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Sparky___

Well-Known Member
Slicer
There are three clear powers on loka, and the problem created by coalitions is that Balak turns into what is essentially a "2v1", creating an obvious unbalance on the Balak. This means balak is no longer about determining the strongest alliance on Loka, but is instead only proving what we already know. Two strong alliances will always beat one strong alliance.
No, no no. There are two sides, there will almost certainly always be two sides. I think we can all agree that Nexa is just Covenant Part 2. By all means they are an independent alliance, allied with Covenant, but they are more or less the same entity as it comes to Conquest. More or less just Iblis & Cov. Jr. I 100% agree, however, that it seems likely that coalitions will always have some inherent imbalance with 2 alliances teaming up against 1.

In my mind, coalitions were introduced to address two issues:
  1. Stale Balak conquest
  2. Formalizing the two sides system.
I think it's important that any future changes must address the second issue, because it encompasses some of the issues I think many of us have agreed on in the past. (Think along the lines of being forced to move to conquest).


Conquest is supposed to be pvp based, the town with the best pvpers and strategy wins. But now it's become a hopeless game of who can recruit the most people. I really don't believe this is in the spirit of Loka. New players pouring in at a rate the server can't support, the consistent player base and memorable faces are what makes loka feel like loka, and in the rush to recruit I believe the welcoming atmosphere of loka has been put at a detriment.
This is arguably Conquest at its core. In my view, Loka is designed in a way so that conquest drives the growth of the server. The point is to bring in more people to keep the fighting going. One single town (unless you manage to merge everyone) is unlikely to take down the top dog, so recruit and ally. Nostalgia is not really something that should dictate the direction of conquest.

New players - who would probably enjoy the server are being driven away by these one-sided fights, thinking it's the only thing loka has to offer. It's kind of upsetting knowing that loka isn't getting shown in it's best light, especially after experiencing how fun and great it can really be.
I think this is a really good point that other people should consider thinking about. It is perhaps something that has been being overlooked lately as we talk about Balak. In my mind this seems to be a failing of continental conquest, which is to say that there is none.

In addition to this wolf force has it hard as is, as there are no active staff members on our side. We have noone to vouch for us, and this forum post will likely go overlooked as there is no staff with our best interest in mind, unlike what covenexa has right now.
The existence of LCRs circumvents staff representation and this is intentional. LCRs have a direct line to Cryptite and Magpie both. If your LCRs aren't representing you then that is something that can be addressed.

the core is too small
Underrated comment.
 
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