Suggestion Nerf Golem Override.

[TheFreshLemon]

A few months ago a Rivinia fight happened for the first time since the September Conquest update. I recall telling an LCR (I forget who) to mention about Golem Override being too op, but I don't think they ever said anything or forgot so I'm making this post. For those of you who don't know in the September Conquest update with all the fancy new things some attacking and defending modules got upgrades.

Golem Override
When attackers warp, Inhib Golems become empowered and all defender modules will become disabled. Each Inhibitor Golem is linked to the corresponding defender module and when killed re-enables that module. Empowered golems are immune to projectile damage and have 200% total health. (lasts max 4 mins)

This is insanely op because in order to get all of your modules back up you need to kill All 4 golems and you can't bow the golems either. (makes sneaking charges impossible) I agree that they should be immune to arrows and be buffed, but I think it should be nerfed to 2 golem kills not 4. You also need to actually get the charge off for the module to be enabled not just kill the golems which is why 2 seems more fair then 4.

 

[Magpieman]

A single attacking module should be somewhat comparable to 4 defending modules. The defending modules should have a small edge to help give the defenders an advantage (along with having a core). Due to this, I find it hard to comprehend how anybody could claim this module is overpowered. I could see the argument that every other attacking module is underpowered, but comparing this module to defenders modules does not appear to support your argument.

Worst case scenario is it effectively makes it so neither side has modules for half the fight (golem override wears off halfway through warp times) and defenders are the only ones with modules for the other half. Now, this clearly gives the defenders a distinct advantage. Granted the argument could be made that the golems having extra health for half the fight (again worst case scenario) counteracts the defenders having 4 modules vs 0 for the other half of the fight. However, due to defenders having access to a buff module of their own which only takes up one of 4 slots, that argument appears to fall down. The final argument that could be made is that golems not being able to be hit by bows is crazy strong, but anyone who plays conquest knows that it is far more effective to melee them. It was many years ago that bowing golems was meta. Like you mention it can be used to sneak charges, but that is not equivalent to 4 modules.

All in all this module being 'insanely op' just does not add up. It may 'feel' strong, but looking at it logically says otherwise. Now perhaps I am missing something, and if so please do let me know.

 

[Lampp_]

just make golems bowable

 

[casperistrash]

that sounds like a you problem

 

[FroggyFruit1357]

Although I normally disagree with stuff lemon says because it involves stuff like making sand smeltable in blast furnaces, I think he brings up a valid point.
It's so absurdly meta to use override that it's basically every modded t-gen is placed on by a GO modded inhibitor. I remember complaining about it being already overused and overpowered, and seeing the latest patch notes showing that it was buffed again. Mag, if you think the module itself is as powerful as the 4 defending modules are, then you need to buff the others. The fact I had to revisit the patch note thread to remember Tactical rush and pearl bomb were options as modules proves how useless of a module they each are.

 

[Lampp_]

SENTRYFRUIT1357 COMES OUT SWINGING

 

[Magpieman]

Although I normally disagree with stuff lemon says because it involves stuff like making sand smeltable in blast furnaces, I think he brings up a valid point.
It's so absurdly meta to use override that it's basically every modded t-gen is placed on by a GO modded inhibitor. I remember complaining about it being already overused and overpowered, and seeing the latest patch notes showing that it was buffed again. Mag, if you think the module itself is as powerful as the 4 defending modules are, then you need to buff the others. The fact I had to revisit the patch note thread to remember Tactical rush and pearl bomb were options as modules proves how useless of a module they each are.

I disagree that Lemons original post brought up a valid point as he states the module is 'insanely op'. This is clearly not the case when put against defender modules. There is no 'think' involved in the argument I put forward. It is not an opinion, but an objective view based on facts (again happy for someone to prove otherwise, or point out mistakes in my argument).

However, as I stated, it is possible that all other attacking modules are underpowered. This is a very different conversation. Your own limited knowledge on the range of modules is by no means proof of anything. As I have stated in the past, it is challenging to judge the power of modules based on use. Due to there only ever being a handful of sides, it is very difficult for a real meta to evolve. There are very few data points and with the majority of conquest fights having a lot on the line, there is limited space for experimenting. An example being TnT modules went months if not a year never being used, despite them turning out to be one of if not the most effective module.

With attacking modules there is the added complexity that each one often requires a different fight style/strategy. To organise this on the scale of a conquest fight is difficult and takes a lot of time. A lot of people are just unable to adapt or don't want to risk using a strategy they are not familiar with in fights, as there is always something on the line. Now, this could be the crux of the issue. A couple of the attacking modules, including Golem Override, do not require a unique strategy to maximise its effectiveness, thus making them more efficient and easier to use. It's possible this is the real issue and there should be a trade-off in power level depending on how easy it is to get the maximum out of a module.

I can try and dig into the data, look at win rates, fight lengths, fight sizes, modules used etc. Again due to the lack of data points because of the nature of conquest, we can't balance purely off of this, but it may reveal some useful info. I think it's important to work out where the real issue/frustration lays. I get the impression that it is not the power level, but instead the lack of variety of attacking modules being used. This, on first impression, appears to be due to the simplicity and ease of use of golem override in comparison with other attacking modules. However, due to the lack of testing and experimenting it is quite possible the balance on some attacking modules need buffing, but this is no guarantee.

 

[casperistrash]

mag is partially right, but there just isnt a reason to pick for example chain reaction over golem override if there are modules (there are most of the time) and grinding over a shulker of materials to mod your tgens just to be hit with golem override isnt really fun, i feel like the mod should get some tweaking and other mods like tactical rush or chain reaction should get a buff or a new feature, but that would be up to the LCRs to think about

 

[Lampp_]

Just make the other options more viable

 

[Jammin_Mas]

Here is my opinion why some mods are and are not being used.

• Golem Override
  • Pros:
    • Disabled defenders modules and gets rid of the BUFF mod temporarily
    • Defenders need to kill a 200% health golem without a bow making it a safe bet for inhib defense
  • Cons
    • Its the best mod and offers a ton of features so i cannot think of a con
• Pearl Bomb
  • Pro
    • Can wipe alot of enemies out at once if coordinated
    • Can force players away from critical locations in a battle
  • Cons
    • Not viable for towns without an ender pearl buff/perk as alot of pearls are used and could be wasted
    • No inhib defense like Golem Override
• Hasty Assault (personally i think this one is very cool)
  • Pros
    • During pushes it can be used to heal alot of players at a time sustaining the push
    • Prevents slowness for free!
  • Cons
    • No inhib golem defense like Golem Override
    • Still must fight through 4 modules during pushes
    • Only good for large player fights
    • The anti slowness is not enough imo
• Chain Reaction
  • Pros
    • Good for pushes
    • Can get alot of charges off a time if done right
    • Negates buff module
  • Cons
    • If you miss a charge its GG so the risk is high
    • You need to chew through the buff mod to get that first golem
    • You still need to chew through 4 tgen mods to get that first golem and charge
• Shield Wall
  • Pros
    • Heals you, anti kb, blocks tgen damage
  • Cons
    • AXE is enemy number 1
    • What happens to the rest of the team without shields??

Notice:

Personally golem override has a lot to offer. The combination of 200% health on your own golems is a sign of assurance that your inhibitor will be safe while you push a tgen with 4 modules disabled. By disabling the modules too, it makes it so getting charges off are easier. Its the dual action capability of increased defense and offense that makes GO so nice to use. I see that with 40 player conquest fights, strategy is thrown out and its whoever can run the enemy off of their tgen/inhib first that wins the fight. Not only do the other modules need reworks, but golem override also needs something done to it aswell.

 

[Magpieman]

but golem override also needs something done to it aswell.

I find comments like this very frustrating and unhelpful. Can you please explain if and why you think this module is stronger than 4 defensive modules? I gave a detailed response here. This module to me is what all attacking modules should be balanced off of.

A single attacking module should be somewhat comparable to 4 defending modules. The defending modules should have a small edge to help give the defenders an advantage (along with having a core). Due to this, I find it hard to comprehend how anybody could claim this module is overpowered. I could see the argument that every other attacking module is underpowered, but comparing this module to defenders modules does not appear to support your argument.

Worst case scenario is it effectively makes it so neither side has modules for half the fight (golem override wears off halfway through warp times) and defenders are the only ones with modules for the other half. Now, this clearly gives the defenders a distinct advantage. Granted the argument could be made that the golems having extra health for half the fight (again worst case scenario) counteracts the defenders having 4 modules vs 0 for the other half of the fight. However, due to defenders having access to a buff module of their own which only takes up one of 4 slots, that argument appears to fall down. The final argument that could be made is that golems not being able to be hit by bows is crazy strong, but anyone who plays conquest knows that it is far more effective to melee them. It was many years ago that bowing golems was meta. Like you mention it can be used to sneak charges, but that is not equivalent to 4 modules.

All in all this module being 'insanely op' just does not add up. It may 'feel' strong, but looking at it logically says otherwise. Now perhaps I am missing something, and if so please do let me know.

There is obviously the possibility that the design itself is 'unfun' or the fact that it has built-in defensive capabilities goes against the philosophy that attacking modules are always attack focused. If that is the case, then perhaps the module needs to be replaced entirely.

 

[Jammin_Mas]

I find comments like this very frustrating and unhelpful. Can you please explain if and why you think this module is stronger than 4 defensive modules? I gave a detailed response here. This module to me is what all attacking modules should be balanced off of.


There is obviously the possibility that the design itself is 'unfun' or the fact that it has built-in defensive capabilities goes against the philosophy that attacking modules are always attack focused. If that is the case, then perhaps the module needs to be replaced entirely.

In the current META as I stated above it's what I like to call the swarm meta. Which ever team runs the other off their base wins the fight. Obviously the GO module is not stronger than 4 defensive modules that are up, however it disables them and getting those 4 modules back is challenging in 40v40 fights where there is 3-7 people defending the golems. 40 decent players swarming a tgen with no modules up can make quick work of any defenders even if they managed to get some of the modules up within the 4 minute window.

 

[Lampp_]

Also the fact that shield wall and hasty assault don't even work as said on paper (Hasty assault hurts your team) doesn't make people want to change from GO

 

[Sparky___]

In the current META as I stated above it's what I like to call the swarm meta. Which ever team runs the other off their base wins the fight.

I think it's fair to say this strategy is not unique to this meta, nor is it the only time it has been employed heavily. It has been my experience that this is a pretty common occurrence throughout CQ3. Not saying anything else is invalid, but I don't think this contributes much to the discussion.

That being said, I've seen the concept of scale tossed around as an issue for modules as larger fights become the norm.

 

[Lampp_]

I think it's fair to say this strategy is not unique to this meta, nor is it the only time it has been employed heavily. It has been my experience that this is a pretty common occurrence throughout CQ3. Not saying anything else is invalid, but I don't think this contributes much to the discussion.

That being said, I've seen the concept of scale tossed around as an issue for modules as larger fights become the norm.

what point are you trying to raise if anything that just means that more op lol

 

[Jammin_Mas]

I think it's fair to say this strategy is not unique to this meta, nor is it the only time it has been employed heavily. It has been my experience that this is a pretty common occurrence throughout CQ3. Not saying anything else is invalid, but I don't think this contributes much to the discussion.

That being said, I've seen the concept of scale tossed around as an issue for modules as larger fights become the norm.

If im reading this correctly you are trying to say that if we replace golem override with another module then the swarm will still exist. This is not likely as you will be doing the initial swarm against tnt and lingering online. This causes more strategy since a side is to face heavy casualties with a bum rush to the tgen.

 

[Sparky___]

If im reading this correctly you are trying to say that if we replace golem override with another module then the swarm will still exist. This is not likely as you will be doing the initial swarm against tnt and lingering online. This causes more strategy since a side is to face heavy casualties with a bum rush to the tgen.

What I'm saying is I've experienced many fights where swarm existed, even prior to Golem Override. It's position in this discussion is largely irrelevant in determining a solution to the problem. I believe the real issue is probably something closer to what you and Magpie said here (in addition to the others perhaps lacking some stronger benefits):

Its the dual action capability of increased defense and offense that makes GO so nice to use.

There is obviously the possibility that the design itself is 'unfun' or the fact that it has built-in defensive capabilities goes against the philosophy that attacking modules are always attack focused. If that is the case, then perhaps the module needs to be replaced entirely.

Modules are something that have undergone a lot of changes over the past 2-3 years. I'm personally a lot happier with where they are than when the Weakness module existed, doesn't mean they can't still be improved. They are understandably impossibly tricky to nail down and I still think some modules do not scale well for larger fights. Think: Laser (too weak) or Pearl Bomb or Tactical Rush, which in larger fights could be potentially busted if used right.

 

[Lurnn]

I think LOKAMC is PERFECT.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Lampp_]

I think LOKAMC is PERFECT.

Thanks for reading.

me finks hasty assault would beg to differ