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[Defgnww]

*Just as a note before I start this thread off, everything I am about to say is of my own views, and mine only. The admins reserve the right to ignore this if they so desire, although it would be most unfortunate if this went unseen by them, especially if this gets a lot of attention. This is also a debate of sorts, so if things start to get flamey, please restrain from bringing personal bias into the argument.*

State of the Server Address!

Welcome, members of Loka! This is the State of the Server Address, where I will be speaking my mind for a number of issues floating around on our server.
- I will divide each specific issue I plan to address into its own separate category.
- You are encouraged to criticize and question my views if you are confused by them or just don't agree, as well as decide to post your own views on the topics.
- This server is ultimately run by the people, because without us, the server would have no reason to exist; therefore, if we are not happy with it, things must change for the general interest of the majority of the server's population. Your views and criticism are critical for change!

Rules and Enforcement

First of all, despite the large list of rules officially posted by Magpieman, there is still a lot of grey area to be found inside the rules. A good place to start with this would be the inconsistency of punishment for broken rules. There seems to be no specific punishment for the rules, whether it be all of them in general or each rule by itself.

For example, PvP logging is against the rules, but is not kicked for, banned for, or even warned for, although there is a plugin that deals with it.
Griefing can result in kicks, temporary or permanent bans, or sometimes simple warnings.
Using inappropriate language or using excessive caps in a sentence can sometimes result in a kick, a warning, or no punishment at all, usually depending on the popularity or rank of a player.
Respecting admins is a silly rule for one, and is not even enforced, along with no enforcement of bullying players.
I'm not sure how punishments for rules are even determined. I understand some situations are unique and require a very specific punishment, but a lot of the broken rules could be enforced by a standard punishment, which should be stated with the rule.

As for the rule of respecting admins: Admin positions do not entitle respect. Instead of a rule commanding all players to respect the admins, the rule should state that all players are to be treated with courtesy. Being rude to anyone without reason would be breaking the rule; questioning the person and disagreeing with them would not.
The rule that says "Do not question Magpieman's decisions," needs to be thrown out altogether, because as members of the server, I believe we are allowed to question the decisions of the admins. If we don't ever question the decisions or rules, they can easily get corrupted or out of hand. Criticism is good.

A punishment to a player should always be justified, now matter how small the crime may seem. For a punishment to be justified, it must meet two standards:
1. It must match the rule broken for. For example, a temporary ban for someone using caps does not match the crime, and even a kick is a little extreme; a simple warning would suffice for the first offense of this rule.
2. All other players in the same situation must also be punished the same. This means bias against a player is not okay. If a person you really like on the server and someone you despise both commit the same offense, both must be punished equally.
If neither of these standarts are met, the punishment is not justified.

Admins, Powers, and Perks

Here is a list of all the current admins:
Owner - asymptonic
Old One - Magpieman
Elder - Cryptite, Gallazius
Guardian - Adderman500, mopb3, Zor95, thelineguy, Lucifer09, Skitch_the_Wolf, Mtndome, Slimjim1988
Sentry - andrekeroxd, Epicbacon99, ghdude15, memrme, 13scooter13, JocelynReed, Thieflord304, MrAlchemy, MOpyc

I want to focus on the two positions players can apply for, Guardian and Sentry.
Sentries should moderate and supervise the chat, and also help with small broken rules. They have all the commands needed for this role, with one extra command, that being /spawn. Sentries don't require the /spawn command, so I really see no point to keeping this.

Guardians seem to be a very big problem with the server. It seems that the majority of Guardians are hardly ever on. All I ever see is Zor95, Skitch_the_Wolf and Mtndome (both very new to Guardian). mopb3, Lucifer09, and adderman500 are occasionally on. SlimJim1988 and thelineguy are pretty much never on.
Then again, maybe they are always on. We would never know, seeing as how they are vanished 95% of the time. Sometimes I see Guardians like SlimJim1988 and mopb3 on, but I am only aware they were on upon their log out, because their name shows up on the chat.
I think that some of the Guardians really need to either become more active, or be demoted. I understand that people are busy with their lives, but this has been going on for months on end. There is no benefit to hanging on to people that are no longer available enough to do their job on the server.

It also seems that Guardians misuse their admin privileges. I have been in the middle of many of these scenarios, only to be laughed at after the fact. There is almost always an excuse for admin abuse, and is therefore often overlooked. This really needs to be tightened up.

I understand that Guardians have a large role, and deserve to use some of their powers as a reward for their service. Unfortunately, the privileges they get are also a large grey area, as well as are too powerful. Being able to use all your commands at your disposal to "defend" your town is just not fair. Sure, TP and different luxuries could be used for you and your town members, but smiting people and jailing them the second they get in sight of your town is just unacceptable.

Player Relations

Another issue spreading throughout the server are relations between all of us, the players of the server. An unnecessary hatred has been introduced into our community, tearing us apart from what should be a fun and happy environment. When was the last time a real community build or event was held, sponsored by the people, for the people, without the regulation of an admin? Yes, raiding and killing is a part of the server, but this should not damage our relations and produce hatred.

The relationship between the administration body and the general server population is not as it should be. Admins should not be seen as people who control us, but rather, those who keep the sevrer safe and play it with us. Admins and players should be friends and equals. We should be able to trust admins, and not be suspicious of them and be worried when they snoop around your stuff.

"Thief Rights"

Complaints about the rights of thieves and "inability to raid" are a little absurd. Rights for raiding and ways to raid are pretty good at the time being. There is some bias when it comes to punishing a thief for a broken rule, which should definitely be fixed. Other than that, the only other thing to promote thief rights I would suggest is the removal of Guardians' abilities to use commands that give them an unfair advantage.

Desires for Promotion

Why is it that almost everyone on the server is dying to become an admin rank? It hardly seems that people want to be an admin for the role of service to the server, but rather the perks that come with it. Just because people apply to become an admin does not mean they have to be accepted, unless they are truly fit for the job, and a new admin is required.

New Players and Towns

We all must really start letting new players in to our towns. New players come to our server pretty often; however, most leave soon after due to being denied entry into any of the multiple towns. I agree that the new players do not need to join a town right off the bat, but they must be given an offer to join a town so that they aren't discouraged. A good idea to promote this is to contact the players looking for towns, and send them on a task to test their abilities. These tasks should last for a good while for the player to become used to the server, and should also test to see if they are trust-worthy and can play Minecraft decently. These tests should not be errands that you need completed.

There are also a lot of new towns on the server. We are booming when it comes to the number of new towns, but the towns are not exactly booming with new members. A solution would be to simply accept more players into our towns, rather than shut them out and have them create their own town that survives for a week or less.

******************************************

All of these views are the things on my mind most as of now. I may have forgotten a few things, in which case, I will edit in after this part, or post in the thread later.

Now it is your turn, fellow members of Loka. Let us share are opinions and views, and hope we can change Loka for the better.

 

[Skitch the Wolf]

When it comes to player/player or player/admin, or even admin/admin relations, I feel as though there's been a lot of tension as of late. I agree that people shouldn't let things like raiding or killing get to them on a personal level (unless, of course, it IS a personal attack) and that if things truly begin bothering someone, they just need to take a step back and think, blow off some steam, or do whatever they can to make sure their own emotions don't evolve into raw hatred or an impenetrable shield of "Piss off." While, yes, I think that server wars add flavor from time to time, I feel like many people have been keen on holding grudges too often. We have to remember that, even though we're interacting from person to person, this is still a game. This is still something we play for fun, not for drama. Petty server politics is the thing that drives the wedge between Fun/Drama. The moment we forget that Loka is the server on a game, or the moment that we develop hatred for other players is the moment it stops being fun. Even the thieving and raiding has gotten to be far too personal and based on anger. We need to step back and relieve this tension. I honestly don't know how, but we need to.

That's why I'm planning on making a thread on these forums for relaxation purposes only. Expect it soon.

 

[Defgnww]

inb4 type "sevrer" in second paragraph of Player Relations.

 

[Hornedbaron]

Ok, well I have some opinions on this topic you brought up, which I would like to share. Some of the things have even been on my mind, however there are some things i dissagree with.

My first point, is concerning when you talk about the severity of punishments and what the crime was to get it. You say that some punishments are unnacceptable for the crime, but I believe what you fail to realise is the number of times it has been done in a certain time period. A couple of days ago, a certain player was being kicked for language and I think I am right in believing, that you stood up for him, because the kicks were too harsh. He had repeated some foul language multiple times and whenever he logged back on, cussed again, and showed hatred towards the server.

My second point is on your player relations section. I understand what you are getting at here, however, people change. Nothing can stay the same and be happy, all as one. We can't forever be working together, and people do just materialise hatred towards others for whatever reason. The sever evolves, and so does it's players.

Thirdly, I would like to say that in your Thief rights section, I believe you have misunderstood something. Once you reach the rank of Guardian, you are no longer allowd to raid, because of the powers that come with the rank. So you have either misread the rules, or we have some corrupt Guardians, that you have noticed...

In your Desires for promotion section, I think you need to ackknowlege that some people have been on the server for a very long time and may have the experience to deserve that rank. I've been on the server for about 2 years now, yet i've only just applied for sentry, so of course im eager.

Hopefully you, and others will accept my opinions.

Cya

 

[Zor95]

For example, PvP logging is against the rules, but is not kicked for, banned for, or even warned for, although there is a plugin that deals with it.

The point of the plugin was to remove the need for admins to interfere in most cases. Imo instant death is enough of a punishment.

Griefing can result in kicks, temporary or permanent bans, or sometimes simple warnings.

Can there be a rule that encompasses every type and severity of griefing? Would it be shorter than 1000 words?

Using inappropriate language or using excessive caps in a sentence can sometimes result in a kick, a warning, or no punishment at all, usually depending on the popularity or rank of a player.

In just about all games that are player moderated you will find that different admins have different preferences and tolerate different amounts of things. There are also different ages of players at different times and the older players don't really care about language providing it isn't directed at any player(s). You'll find that if something offensive is directed at a player they will be removed immediately. Otherwise, there are far too many variables.

no enforcement of bullying players.

The rule was created to stop people from raiding one town (Central) 24/7. We also use it to stop people from camping one player. Typically 3-4 kills in a row are allowed but then you must stop. Have you witnessed anyone breaking this rule?

I'm not sure how punishments for rules are even determined. I understand some situations are unique and require a very specific punishment, but a lot of the broken rules could be enforced by a standard punishment, which should be stated with the rule.

As stated above, there are so many scenarios and loopholes to close that'd it would take a New York Times best seller to cover it all. If you can come up with condensed versions then go for it.

 

[Mtndome]

I appreciate you taking the time to put this together, so I will start with each section and work my way down. There are several things I agree with, and points that I don't.

Rules and enforcement:

The grey area you mention will be found in almost all rules, with the exception of a legal document. You cant expect someone to read a legal document, and I would be annoyed as hell as a new player to try and read through every exception. I do agree that many rules do not have specific punishment, but all of them ~can~ result in a /kick, /temp ban, or /ban. A player shouldn't be able to know which rules are considered "less important" than others. For example, letting it be know that caps in chat is only a warning, followed by /kick worthy offense, then players will be more likely to break said rule. If they are under the impression it is not tolerated, they will be less likely to do so. On the issue of language and caps, yes, some admins deem certain words or phrasing unacceptable. I'll agree that we should either make certain words acceptable, or not allow anything of the sort. Respecting admins, to a degree, is a silly rule. But it is a rule because some self-important A-hole decided to constantly argue with admin's decisions, and disrespect them. Common courtesy should be a no-brainer, but I shouldn't be forced to be courteous to someone I don't care for. Would I be? Of course. I'm Southern, and I treat everyone with respect. But I shouldn't be forced to be. Admins are in their positions so that they may help with the day to day running of Loka. They shouldn't have people be asshats to them, just because they can. But I do agree that that is a loosely worded rule. Do not question Mag's decisions was meant as a funny joke. I question Magpie all the time. Laugh. Chill out. I agree with your standards, but you need more there. You, as a non-admin player, do not know of all of the rules a player has broken. If you are not online when I warn a player continuously about caps, or language, and you are only on for my /kick or /tempban, you assume I am being unfair. You cannot just assume I am doing wrong because I decided to /kick or /tempban. You should also, perhaps, /msg me if you think I am being unfair, or make a post about it, as opposed to trying to call me out in main chat. No one else on the server wants to hear the bickering or listen to me explain myself. Admins are trusted to do what is right, and if they weren't, well, they wouldn't be admins. Furthermore, I think It is ridiculous that you think someone would get special treatment. I will /kick anyone that breaks a rule, regardless of who broke it. I would treat you no differently that I would josh, or Art, or joce.

Admins, Power, and Perks
You cannot expect someone to be a Sentry and not give them any special ability. It would be like picking up extra time at work and not being paid for it. Sentries are not allowed /tp abilites, but sometimes, they must travel to a player to assist with an issue. It is not fair to ask a Sentry to do so, without providing them an easy way back to spawn.
Personally, I think the only reason you have an issue with Guardians is due to your previous experience. Mopb3, luci, and adder are on, normally when you are not. Timezones, bro, timezones. Vanishing assists admins in performing their abilities. We cannot watch for griefers, or ensure rules are being followed, if everywhere we go, we are in plain sight. If you need an admin, Asking for one in chat will easily get you anyone you need. Slim and line, to my knowledge, were both demoted.
Your issue with your Admin abuse, was dealt with. He was demoted for his infraction. Suck it up and move on. On the point of using admin abilities to "defend" our town: We give up the rights to raid, PvP, etc. to become higher admins. Within the confines of our city, we are permitted full extension of our abilities. If you don't like it, don't raid admin towns. Admins can only use their abilities if you are trespassing. Solution? Don't trespass.

Player Relations:
I see no hatred, with the exception of towns that dislike one another. There are plenty of community build or events sponsored by towns. If you aren't being invited, well, that should tell you where the problem lies. If you want more build or events, sponsor them yourself.
There are few people that see admins the was you do. I don't lord of any player that comes onto the server. I, as the other admins, assist them with issues, and I have never been told I am "scary", "mean", or "unapproachable". And I agree, you should be able to trust admins. However, if you don't trust any of us, that's your own issue. If you feel we are wronging you, or stealing from you, report it. Crypt can check things on Console.

Thief Rights:
Guardians cannot raid. We cannot assist Raiders. We can watch. That is the extent of what we are allowed to do.

Desires for Promotion:
Many people have been turned down from Admin ranks. No one is being accepted all willy-nilly. It's discussed amongst the admins at length.

New Players and Towns:
Many new players on the server are being snatched up quickly, if they are deemed worthy of a town. How many new players have you invited? You cannot force people to accept new players, just because they may leave. Creating a "noob town" would be up to a player to do. Draynor has long been accepted as the "new player town". If people are unsure on a player, giving them a task or sending them to Draynor to live is an acceptable solution. Many folks on the server send them to Draynor anyway. And you cannot determine whether or not a player is trustworthy by a single task. And restricting the tasks that town owners would send them on is absurd. If I wanted to see if a player was hardworking and dedicated, I'd send them for something I needed, possibly farther out. Let's say, a jungle biome, 3k away, for 6 stacks of jungle wood. If they die 1 billion times on the way out, and come back with a single stack of wood, there is no way in hell I want that person in my city.

In conclusion, if you want change, take the rules you want change, and propose change for them.

 

[Zor95]

Admin positions do not entitle respect. Instead of a rule commanding all players to respect the admins, the rule should state that all players are to be treated with courtesy. Being rude to anyone without reason would be breaking the rule; questioning the person and disagreeing with them would not.

I would say first of all that a player must have gained a good amount of respect from the rest of the players to make it to Slicer. And then they have to gain even more respect to make it to admin. So due to these facts I'd say you should respect admins just because of they have made it to that position. If you don't think they deserve the position then you know what to do.

However, I do think the rule should be rephrased for all players, not just admins.

The rule that says "Do not question Magpieman's decisions," needs to be thrown out altogether, because as members of the server, I believe we are allowed to question the decisions of the admins.

Apparently this was a troll that Magpie was waiting for us to find. Or maybe it wasn't a troll. And they say I have the big ego?

A punishment to a player should always be justified, now matter how small the crime may seem. For a punishment to be justified, it must meet two standards:
1. It must match the rule broken for. For example, a temporary ban for someone using caps does not match the crime, and even a kick is a little extreme; a simple warning would suffice for the first offense of this rule.
2. All other players in the same situation must also be punished the same. This means bias against a player is not okay. If a person you really like on the server and someone you despise both commit the same offense, both must be punished equally.
If neither of these standarts are met, the punishment is not justified.

1. That is exactly what we do? Except for Magpie who kicks the admins who use caps for the lulz. But we typically don't care when he does that and laugh too.
2. Punishments are largely determined by rank. If a Wanderer griefs a house they'll likely be banned because they've just gotten to the server and have already begun breaking rules. In comparison, someone of a higher rank will likely be warned or punished lightly seeing as they've been on this server longer, contributed more, and likely have a good/better reputation. That is fair, no?

 

[Zor95]

Sentries should moderate and supervise the chat, and also help with small broken rules. They have all the commands needed for this role, with one extra command, that being /spawn. Sentries don't require the /spawn command, so I really see no point to keeping this.

If we do not give Sentries some mildly abusable power then how can we determine whether or not they can be trusted with the powers of a Guardian? Sure, we do think very carefully about who we allow to be Sentry, but power often corrupts and it is difficult to predict what will happen. Also, Sentries are meant to show newer players around if Guardians are offline/busy or if that is just not their forte. Thus, /spawn.

It seems that the majority of Guardians are hardly ever on.

We've been demoting them. Note the rank of Slimjim and Alchemy in comparison to what it what one month ago?

It also seems that Guardians misuse their admin privileges. I have been in the middle of many of these scenarios, only to be laughed at after the fact. There is almost always an excuse for admin abuse, and is therefore often overlooked. This really needs to be tightened up.

Whenever power has been abused on another player, action has been taken. When jokes are made they aren't directed at you and it's typically meant to lighten up the situation. This is a game, you should laugh a little.

I understand that Guardians have a large role, and deserve to use some of their powers as a reward for their service. Unfortunately, the privileges they get are also a large grey area, as well as are too powerful. Being able to use all your commands at your disposal to "defend" your town is just not fair. Sure, TP and different luxuries could be used for you and your town members, but smiting people and jailing them the second they get in sight of your town is just unacceptable.

When we accept the role as a Guardian we accept that's it is more of a work than play job and you're right there needs to be some motivation for us to do this job as we're not getting payed. Since we have given up the ability to PvP for profit, steal, and raid I don't think it is unfair to give us a little box and let us use our powers freely inside them. We don't make people walk inside the box. We also aren't online 24/7 to defend the box.

[to be continued after some responses]

 

[adderman500]

Guardians seem to be a very big problem with the server. It seems that the majority of Guardians are hardly ever on. All I ever see is Zor95, Skitch_the_Wolf and Mtndome (both very new to Guardian). mopb3, Lucifer09, and adderman500 are occasionally on.

I believe you are american, def. If you look at the admins you selected as ones you see frequently, those are the ones who cover the american time zone. Us brits (mop and I) cover much of the day in which you might be asleep, or could be at school still, or are just having a day out. Most people play in the evenings, and due to the magic of time zones everyone's evenings are not at the same time! I believe Luci covers Australia, but don't hold me to that.
That is my response to that issue, mtn and zor have pretty much expressed my opinions in various statements that they have added.

 

[mopb3]

I'm not gonna vote in that poll, because it just doesn't make sense.

As for the general question at hand I believe that yes the server does need a change, but not in quite the way you are imagining it Def.

 

[andrekeroxd]

I am really glad you took your time to do this. And I share your opinion in the part that talks about "Desires for Promotion"
On all the other points though, I agree with Mtn, Zor and horned.