Keep-On-Death during Balak Vulnerability

[marblesack12]

Also important to remember that at a point this marathon malarkey will stop and people can settle things where needed over conquest.

I'm as excited for regular conquest battles to return as you are, but this race-to-place, in the current format, will take up the first third of every conquest month. It'll stop, yeah, but it will be back again after the next truce period. It is a new equally-important part of Balak Conquest and deserves scrutiny.

 

[Sparky___]

I'm as excited for regular conquest battles to return as you are, but this race-to-place, in the current format, will take up the first third of every conquest month. It'll stop, yeah, but it will be back again after the next truce period. It is a new equally-important part of Balak Conquest and deserves scrutiny.

I think this is a really valid and important point, and if you will indulge my somewhat off topic (and quite long, sorry!) response I'd like to elaborate to something bigger. I've remain pretty undecided about the whole new marathon races to territories in addition to the KOD change. That being said, I think your point makes me realize that, as much fun as I think it is, I'm not so sure I want to be continually doing this every first week or so of the month - and I don't think people should feel or be forced to do that. This is simply because, it seems logical that mobilizing in the opening days of Balak is perhaps necessary to give yourself the best possible position to win Balak at the end of the month. The overall question becomes less about the KOD change and more about the place of the marathon fights as a whole. It's a week long (at least) period of daily "ganking" and racing to get to the best position possible.

Bear in mind that conceivably this situation arises out of the simple fact that there are only two sides fighting on Balak. I don't think the issue stops with making Balak KOD. I do think, however, that it's feasible to satisfy both parts of the problem: First, that whomever can pearl the best gets to place first. Second, there being a lack of fighting over who can actually set the inhibitor. I've heard discussion, from Cryptite, about the idea of making inhibitor set ups the equivalent of how VOTA pads work. If this were to be implemented it would mean two things, I believe: First, whomever gets there first will not necessarily be the one that gets the tile. Second, the time it takes to physically set up the inhibitor allows for enemies to contest and fight and potentially revert the inhibitor to neutral and then set their own. Moreover, it seems fair to be able to then compromise to the more unstated wants of players, who hate losing gear and/or still want to be able to collect gear, by having the KOD begin once someone starts to set the inhibitor. This doesn't resolve the whole issue, though, as there is obviously still going to be a mad dash to get to the location to support your teammates. Though, as I think some of us have seen, there tends to be limited fighting during the majority part of these sprints, as people begin fighting closer to the inhibitor pads. I see this as more of a compromise between the nature of Balak, as being intended specifically for Conquest as well as the popular "gank fights."

All of this is to say that perhaps this specific change is coming too soon and it's worth evaluating the bigger situation as a whole, before taking this action. Of course, it's also possible that I've wasted a few moments of your time by rambling on about something completely absurd and irrelevant (Hopefully not!). That potential miscalculation aside, I'm sure my response doesn't addresses all of the issues I have been hearing let alone my own distaste for wanting to have to daily fights like this (every month), but I think that's mostly because I'm just not very good at PvP.

tl;dr: Perhaps VOTA inhibitor pads might be a better change and more rewarding experience, than simply making Balak KOD.

 

[ArcherSquid]

how will I get gear now

 

[Adzy]

how will I get gear now

I would say raid cincia but you know...

 

[ArcherSquid]

I would say raid cincia but you know...

 

[Adzy]

I’m sorry, I got some leather armour will that do?

 

[Malen]

Hey Mrp, sorry for the late response, I went to sleep around 5 yesterday xd was up for too long, but I do wanna say thank you for response, so let's get right into it then.

This is a great point, with the way conquest has changed it does seem limited in a sense for sure. Diversity in PvP is also something that needs to be considered as well, diversity is always a great thing to be able to offer. What I don't think holds weight in this argument is that this change somehow further shrinks the pvp that would take place with KoD or without KoD. The same race and the same fights will happen regardless of the change. The only thing that might change because of this is that more people that aren't as confident in their pvp ability will come out as well, since they know that even if they die they won't lose their gear.

So as per this, I think you have a rather good point as well, my main point to this was more so in the vain of keeping diversity alive, and referring to the fact that outside of the Loka community most people expect to get something when they get a kill, not just be given a +1 to the kills on their sword. I agree that it might bring out some that aren't confident in their capabilities as a PvPer but I feel with the size of the Loka community this is at most 1 or 2 players. I've seen some of both sides worst PvPers show up for the fun and not worry about losing their gear.

Another good point, I really like that you pointed out the risk vs. reward thing. That is something that I love about fighting in the wilds and I know the Ganksquad™ loves as well. Taking out more risk vs. reward in a server that is already set up to make it very difficult to be able to kill and loot an enemy does feel bad. I think the only thing I would come against here is when you said this change would alienate players and somehow affect their skill set. I don't see how adding KoD would impact a players ability or skillset, they would simply not be rewarded with gear for their victory. This change does nothing to change how combat works or the necessity of running to the pad which will put people in combat and the player with the better skillset will usually come out on top regardless of this change.

I would like to reference your first response to me when you said "The only thing that might change because of this is that more people that aren't as confident in their pvp ability will come out as well, since they know that even if they die they won't lose their gear." The change of KoD does quite a bit to effect a player's ability or skillset for those that are not confident in what they can do. You even agreed yourself, hence why I brought it up. Also it does change how combat works quite heavily, it allows players to play as martyrs and not have to worry about losing their gear, and allows them to run in with a kb2 for example to hold and bait time out without any loss outside of pots. (also +1 for Ganksquad™ lmao)

I see where you are coming from here, I think this makes sense for sure. Overall I can't say I love the fact that this change will take out the risk and reward aspects of the game. The question you pose here is fair as well, but I don't think anyone on Balak currently has an issue with gear. The change wouldn't be to implement a handicap per se, it is being brought about (based on what crypt said) because people are required to do it, since it is becoming a part of Balak conquest I can see why they would want to implement a change like this. I may not agree with it 100% but I do see that aspect at least. In wilds fights, for example, one side has decided to take the risk of going out somewhere they can be fought by their own volition, enemies can also come of their own volition and fight them for their gear. On Balak both sides are required to show up at the beginning and do this world race at a time set by the server.

Yeah not too much for me to say here, the one thing I wanted to touch on that walkers already mentioned was that no side is required to do it, now I will agree that the most beneficial thing to do is to go for the hot tile as it offers the next best buff/strategical position/etc. Although it offers this, that doesn't mean it's required. Just because something is the best option doesn't mean you need to follow up on that choice, all options you have when fighting obviously have their risk and reward and if you overlook most of your top options will have a high risk high reward scenario in place, hence the whole high risk high reward usage. And lastly at the end of the day "On Balak both sides are required to show up at the beginning and do this world race at a time set by the server." Yup, can't argue with that if you want to go with the best tile choice.

Lastly I wanted to pose you a question and get your thoughts on it, what if with KoD when you die you still dropped things like pearls/potions? I think one huge thing about kills, besides getting loot/gear, you refill on supplies to continue fighting without having to leave. Now obviously being able to head back home to fully repair/re-gear etc. is the most desirable choice when time allows, but in a pinch grabbing some pots of someone you killed to keep going is always a interesting thing. Furthermore it really can make for some interesting and fun outplays/scenarios you wouldn't normally see, i.e. in a outnumbered fight focusing the opposing sides weaker players to try and thin them out and get their pots to turn the fight to your sides favor. So thoughts?

 

[Mrp]

Lastly I wanted to pose you a question and get your thoughts on it, what if with KoD when you die you still dropped things like pearls/potions? I think one huge thing about kills, besides getting loot/gear, you refill on supplies to continue fighting without having to leave. Now obviously being able to head back home to fully repair/re-gear etc. is the most desirable choice when time allows, but in a pinch grabbing some pots of someone you killed to keep going is always a interesting thing. Furthermore it really can make for some interesting and fun outplays/scenarios you wouldn't normally see, i.e. in a outnumbered fight focusing the opposing sides weaker players to try and thin them out and get their pots to turn the fight to your sides favor. So thoughts?

Wow I really like this idea. Would be interested to hear from Crypt or Skuboo for thoughts on this idea. I would probably be more on board for just dropping potions instead of pearls. I think this is a good way to satisfy both sides, kills are rewarded with the ability to keep going without stopping while the one losing their life doesn't have to worry about losing gear/weapons etc. The only thing I could see people criticizing this for is that it breaks up consistency of KoD and how it is used in conquest fights. Not sure if I would want this change to roll over to conquest fights as refilling and repotting is pretty vital in the back and forth that is a tgen fight. Never having to stop or think about supply would just mean if you were ever winning the fight it would be almost impossible for the fight to turn around in the losers favor, something I really love about conquest. I like the change for Balak marathons though for sure. +1

 

[Cryptite]

Wow I really like this idea. Would be interested to hear from Crypt or Skuboo for thoughts on this idea. I would probably be more on board for just dropping potions instead of pearls. I think this is a good way to satisfy both sides, kills are rewarded with the ability to keep going without stopping while the one losing their life doesn't have to worry about losing gear/weapons etc. The only thing I could see people criticizing this for is that it breaks up consistency of KoD and how it is used in conquest fights. Not sure if I would want this change to roll over to conquest fights as refilling and repotting is pretty vital in the back and forth that is a tgen fight. Never having to stop or think about supply would just mean if you were ever winning the fight it would be almost impossible for the fight to turn around in the losers favor, something I really love about conquest. I like the change for Balak marathons though for sure. +1

I agree. The inconsistency of the application would be my biggest concern unless we were to roll this behavior of KoD to a wider, or global area.

 

[Skuhoo]

I agree that differences in the keep on death mechanic would be confusing, but dropping potions/pearls shouldn't be implemented globally either. A mechanic like that would go back to discouraging non-pvpers from participating. If you think you probably won't be able to accomplish anything before dying, why bother going just to act as a free pot refuel for the enemy's pvpers?

 

[DeceitfulPear]

I agree that differences in the keep on death mechanic would be confusing, but dropping potions/pearls shouldn't be implemented globally either. A mechanic like that would go back to discouraging non-pvpers from participating. If you think you probably won't be able to accomplish anything before dying, why bother going just to act as a free pot refuel for the enemy's pvpers?

Definitely not globally for the entire server, but for on Balak I think that it is a middle ground for punishing deaths but also rewarding kills. Also kinda like how the Marathon isn't actually a conquest fight but it has become a necessary part to get to the conquest fight. Considering how polarizing this idea has been I do believe a middle ground is the best idea. If not to at least test it out possibly. Everything except armor/weapons dropping was an idea I thought of too. Since I'm not a good PvPer at all I would also appreciate it but I don't want to feel patronized by only being punished through waiting a few minutes to get back into the Marathon fight. Otherwise I have very little motivation to get better or be worried about going at all. I think a small bit of fear is necessary for fun when it comes to fights personally.

Deaths in Conquest are punishing because then the otherside has better chance of getting golem kills which is a very big deal.

Deaths in the Marathon should be punished more than just waiting longer but again I agree they shouldn't be fully punished like World PvP but until it is a conquest battle I like the idea that at least something drops when you die. This idea also may change if the Inhib pad activation becomes like VoTA because then obviously deaths are more punishing on their own honestly.