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[Kylaz]

As it stands, Buffed golems deal 4 hearts of damage (pure damage, meaning they ignore invuln frames, so you can get crit at the same time and take up to 7 hearts of damage if it was a 3 heart crit). We also have the vanilla mechanic where you can heal golems with iron ingots. I think that these 2 mechanics combined are a bit OP. The intention of creating a non PvP Oriented role for conquest is good, but in practice these golems deal too much damage and are too easy to heal. I think Loka expected the cost of AIs to buff a golem to be a steep one but it is quite obvious that active players can afford it easily, which is why we often see golems buffed all the time when enemy players are on the Tgen. Some sort of nerf should be implemented, atleast to buffing golems, to make it a bit easier for the side pushing the enemy building to do so. Possible nerfs include:

• Decreasing the damage these golems do
• Making it so they do not do pure damage, or changing how this works to make eating 6.5-7 hearts of damage in a tick a less likely occurrence
• Add some sort of cooldown (the fact there isn't one on the vanilla healing golems is a bit bizarre, I have seen players hold right click with iron ingots and they keep a golem immortal)

Other ideas are welcome too, it is also worth noting that Cryptite often suggests "drawing aggro" in order to effectively counter these buffed golems, but this is often easier said than done in practice. Golem behavior is sometimes a bit unpredictable. They lock onto someone and completely ignore the other player(s) hitting them to go for that person and so on. Basically, I think Loka should realize that a lot of concepts are good in theory, but might not work so well in practice given the wonky nature of Minecraft. Thanks for reading
TLDR: Golems Buffed with AIs do much damage, very fast, ignore invuln frames, nerf them in some way (ex. cooldown)

 

[ZyeMist]

I’ve only tried charge taking solo when our gen is overrun - ie, there is no better play to do. Is it supposed to be intuitive, game design wise, to punish the best possible play I can make, and say that I should do it with a team?

How do you expect to sneak when there are dedicated defense players staying in defense? You say this as if sneaking is impossible because of buffed golems being added. It’s impossible because someone is defending. Chickpro managed to sneak just fine 4 days ago in the non-reins double place defence.

Funny because WE certainly haven’t been off handing, so you guys are just saying golems are easy to handle while being the only ones bug abusing.

Buddy y’all barely seem to interact with your own golems as a whole.

That’s not a “nerf” because you should not have been able to do that in the first place. It’s a bug that should be fixed.

The offhanding thing was reported months ago, before buffed golems was even added, it’s just returning to people’s attention now because of the buffed golems.

Edit:
Oh hey Cryptite even chimed in about it lol

Bruh. That probably explains the confusion around there being a cooldown or not :l

Even if the single player mainhand repair cooldown applied to offhand and was an intentional cooldown added by the server - which according to crypt wasn’t - there was never a cooldown if multiple players repaired the golems. Sure it nerfs the solo defender if there was a cooldown. But based on current mechanics, even if defenders all main handed iron to repair, they could just work with another player to both repair.

 

[Hyperspeed]

Not taking sides here, but just want to point out that if someone is at the gen to buff the golems that "make it impossible to sneak," then you are not sneaking to begin with. There is a big difference between sneaking charges (doing it while there is no one defending) and trying to solo charges (taking charges alone while there is someone defending). Soloing before the golem buffs were added was already nearly impossible, because if your gen is overrun then the enemy team has enough players to keep some at defense to prevent charges being taken. AIing golems does not prevent sneaking, it prevent soloing, something that was already impossible before this feature was added.

How do you expect to sneak when there are dedicated defense players staying in defense? You say this as if sneaking is impossible because of buffed golems being added. It’s impossible because someone is defending. Chickpro managed to sneak just fine 4 days ago in the non-reins double place defence.

One of the main arguments for adding this mechanic was that it makes charge taking more team based... As I said its already team based because of your statements exactly (You can't really take a charge with someone defending!). So, I still fail to see why this change was necessary in the first place, especially when defending took actual skill, and buffing golems doesn't.

Furthermore, defense does not make it impossible to sneak charges. (When I say sneak, as in solo taking, for clarification). Solo taking charges was already difficult, and now adding golems has literally made it impossible to do when your gen is overrun. Advocates for "Vicious Defense", as it is called, say that buff golems are quite easy to counter with a team. However, if you bring even 2 players to the gen, then it will attract significantly more attention than just 1 solo player.

This also does not account for the fact that you could at least try to take a charge solo prior to the golem buff. Now, you can't even kill the golem.. While teamplay is important, an individual player should still be able to have counterplay when their team has performed poorly. Yet, with vicious defense, it is almost impossible to sneak (solo) charges unless there is just no one defending.

So, actually, if anything, then this change REMOVES a "role" from players. Before, we had sub-roles of sneaker, and defender, and now, it can only really be defender. Thus, this change still does not have a beneficial impact, game design wise.

Buddy y’all barely seem to interact with your own golems as a whole.

I mean, then how can these opinions of "it's not that hard to play around steroid golems" be accurate? We don't want to spend extra time to afford the cost. It shouldn't be a mechanic. And we also haven't been bug abusing by offhanding iron. Hence, you guys haven't experienced Vicious Defense in its entirety. The experiences denoted by players saying that this is a balanced change just cannot be thorough.

Might I add, separately, if bypassing the cooldown by offhanding is in fact "not an oversight", then it just means the golems are even more broken than they were intended to be.

 

[scotrian]

This is indeed my main issue with golems, but I believe my suggestion higher up in the thread would solve that issue. Apart from cases where you literally get hit by someone and golem at the exact same tick, I haven't thought of a way to prevent that from happening. The earlier suggestion of instead making it a bleed that delays the damage over a period of time could perhaps fix it.

Ps. Remove Robin hood, if i was a random recruit and take 8 hearts of dmg from one arrow and just died, I'd quit it's just not fun. (This is a joke I don't think robin hood actually should be removed.)

he logged on for a kalros robin hood fight said vinovia was full of estrogen and logged off again

 

[ZyeMist]

if bypassing the cooldown by offhanding is in fact "not an oversight", then it just means the golems are even more broken than they were intended to be.

I read "not and oversight" as Crypt added buffed golems knowing they could be repaired, aka not "more broken than they were intended" just exactly as intended.

it is almost impossible to sneak (solo) charges unless there is just no one defending.

Yes exactly this.

This also does not account for the fact that you could at least try to take a charge solo prior to the golem buff. Now, you can't even kill the golem.

This addition alone does not change whether or not a golem can be killed. The buffed golems don't have increased hp on their own - its the buff mod that give them increased hp. 4 buffed golems with no defender around won't prevent "sneakers" from killing golems and taking charges. It's the defender being around that does. Again repairing golems is something people are complaining more about now that buffed golems is a thing, but plenty of people complained about it before in rivina where players couldn't kill a golem because someone was repairing it (mostly me and 12don). It's just become a more common point people are discussing now because the golems do more than just sit there and look pretty.

 

[mimo4]

Even if the single player mainhand repair cooldown applied to offhand and was an intentional cooldown added by the server - which according to crypt wasn’t - there was never a cooldown if multiple players repaired the golems. Sure it nerfs the solo defender if there was a cooldown. But based on current mechanics, even if defenders all main handed iron to repair, they could just work with another player to both repair.

for the record i already asked for a universal custom cooldown that applies to the golems themselves rather than the player doing the healing, i am aware that this is a vanilla feature completely untouched by Loka but i still found it strange multiple people replied to kyla saying she was wrong about there being no cooldown only for you to casually mention that this cooldown can be (and 90% of the time is) bypassed entirely if you offhand the iron ingots (which again, most players who take this role in a conquest fight do), she was completely right, just got the details of it wrong.

 

[Hyperspeed]

I read "not and oversight" as Crypt added buffed golems knowing they could be repaired, aka not "more broken than they were intended" just exactly as intended.

As per the latest up to date threads I can find, Golems are supposed to have a 1.5 second heal cooldown, which is NOT supposed to stack with multiple players! Being able to bypass that cooldown entirely should absolutely not be intended.

• "The cooldown for healing Golems with Iron Ingots has been moved from the individual player to the golem itself.
  • AKA Golems can only be healed once every 1.5s, regardless of who's doing the healing."​

Yes exactly this.

Is that supposed to be healthy for the state of the game? Providing zero counterplay for an individual, punishing them for doing the best play they can?

This addition alone does not change whether or not a golem can be killed. The buffed golems don't have increased hp on their own - its the buff mod that give them increased hp. 4 buffed golems with no defender around won't prevent "sneakers" from killing golems and taking charges. It's the defender being around that does. Again repairing golems is something people are complaining more about now that buffed golems is a thing, but plenty of people complained about it before in rivina where players couldn't kill a golem because someone was repairing it (mostly me and 12don). It's just become a more common point people are discussing now because the golems do more than just sit there and look pretty.

While it may be the presence of the defender that stops the possibility of sneaking, it should not outright make it impossible. 4 buffed golems and a defender healing them makes it impossible to sneak. As I said, it takes no skill to buff up the golems and right click them. This is not a good alternative to classic defense, which is actually skill-based and leaves possibilities for counterplay. Furthermore, classic defense is a more active role, is intuitive, and requires more team play than clicking the golems - so, more in line with the original intent behind the change in the first place.

 

[Hyperspeed]

for the record i already asked for a universal custom cooldown that applies to the golems themselves rather than the player doing the healing, i am aware that this is a vanilla feature completely untouched by Loka but i still found it strange multiple people replied to kyla saying she was wrong about there being no cooldown only for you to casually mention that this cooldown can be (and 90% of the time is) bypassed entirely if you offhand the iron ingots (which again, most players who take this role in a conquest fight do), she was completely right, just got the details of it wrong.

So I just tested and the cooldown does NOT apply per player, it applies per golem! (As consistent with https://forums.lokamc.com/threads/official-update-thread.292/page-52#post-46198). So any sort of excess healing going on is very likely unintended, and should not exist as a feature. Hence, the only way to heal a golem rapidly is by offhanding it - clearly unintended.

 

[Cryptite]

As per the latest up to date threads I can find, Golems are supposed to have a 1.5 second heal cooldown, which is NOT supposed to stack with multiple players! Being able to bypass that cooldown entirely should absolutely not be intended.

• "The cooldown for healing Golems with Iron Ingots has been moved from the individual player to the golem itself.
  • []AKA Golems can only be healed once every 1.5s, regardless of who's doing the healing."[/]

I stand corrected! That's what happens to code you wrote so many years ago.

In this case it's clearly a bug that offhanding iron ignores the 1.5s cooldown. This is now fixed, though I might admit that 1.5s seems an eternity trying to heal a golem even when it's not under attack.

 

[9Crits]

Lenrith making 100k per conquest fight

 

[BIGSIZZLEE]

remove them from rivis they should not be in that small of fights

 

[rolyy]

Everyone knows that golems are a key part of loka fights, but i think currently they might be a little too overpowered, its important to realise that the ability to buff and heal golems allows players with a lower level of skill to have an impact on fights, but i think currently the impact made by buffing and healing is too large.
This is mainly due to a few reasons:

damage taken per tick:
it seems when fighting around golems that they can hit through the normal invulnerability window that players have after recieving damage, for exmaple, a player can be crit by another play losing a potential 3 hearts, while recieving a buffed golem hit for 4 hearts at the same time - this causes the player to take a possible 7 hearts of damge, or more from mods/mutators, in a single tick. this just isnt feasible to play against and becomes extremely hard to fight around and punishes attackers who are already at a disadvantage.
in this clip here we can see the described above - https://streamable.com/svdrdu

movement of golems:
its also very annoying at how much vicious golems move around, they tp to players fighting in mid and chase way further out from the defending building than normal. this can hugely change the momentum of fights and allow the defending team to regain too much control of the battle zone, often pushing attackers way too far back. this is also punishing the attackers once more as they dont have as much as a safety boundary like the defenders do with their building as if they retreat too much they lose the chance to take charges and then can in turn lose the fight
heres an example: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...d8073c0e15a0634454d1edcbe269d590be94cfcb3808&

rivi specific:
in a fight where there are only 10 players on each team, having 4 buffed defensive golems is outreageous, there is simply not enough attackers to deal with the huge damage output the golems do and it makes it especially hard for people to take charges as there is less distractions for the defenders. 10 attackers having to deal with 10 defenders and 4 buffed golems is just too much to ask, and i think the actual mechanic of golems being buffed in rivis needs to be fixed. the buffed golems in rivis just put too much pressure on the low number of attackers, heres a clip showing this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...f9fd5d2b68c1bcc6ff9107bd676070a6c51a33248ff7&

i think theres a few changes that could be made to make fights and rivis more enjoyable for everyone

- make sure golems attacks are checked with the invulnerability window of the player meaning they cant be hit at the same time they are crit
- remove buffing golems from specifically rivi fights
- slightly decrease the amount that golems chase out of their tgen (lower distance they roam and agro)

 

[Cryptite]

We haven't fully deep-dived on all the arguments here (and will with LCRs), but one immediate change that has pretty universal agreement is that, at the very least, Vicious Attack golems that are also buffed with Vicious Defense (kinda terrible naming schemes here...) are overwhelmingly OP. Because VA golems have a chance (it's not a guarantee) to do a normal melee hit in addition to their knockup/bleed, it's too much burst with the RNG to be fair when also buffed.

As of this morning you can no longer AI-buff VA golems with VD.

Edit: We have removed it from Rivi as well. We agree that VD golems on Rivi have a particularly outsized influence due to the small size of the fights.

 

[Kotten]

yeah, change names on those