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Suggestion Nerf to Knockback Swords

UghBraces

Well-Known Member
Currently in conquest I believe that knockback swords are being used way more in recent years on Loka compared to a couple years ago. The problem essentially that me and most other players face is the issue of opponents "mainhanding" knockback swords which is pretty difficult to combat against. I believe I have found a solution for this problem and that is removing the sharpness enchantment on knockback swords. Doing this, players would no longer be incentivized to use knockback swords in "normal combat." You would also still be able to use knockback for all the "primary" uses that it is intended to be used for, such as: knocking charges, boosting your teammates, or knocking enemy players away from you when you are trying to refill.

This is not a fully thought out idea so any comments helping refine the idea would be very helpful.

I believe that if this change were implemented, then modules such as Supercharged would be extremely overpowered, because you have 30 seconds to take a charge and would not have to pot if players are just kbing you away. My friend mimo4 thought of a good idea to combat this which would be to make players that are charged take damage as if they were being hit with a Sharpness 5 sword.

TLDR: Nerf knockback by making it so you can’t have sharpness on KB swords. Charged players should take extra damage from these swords so the game stays balanced.
 
42 voters
Ahh yes loka, the most vanilla minecraft server with crystals dealing equal damage, bows doing true damage to yourself, the shield cooldown, no gapples or notch apples, custom items allowing you to teleport to a safezone.

If you're going to try to disagree with UB's suggestion atleast add some substance to it. As a slicer and a long time member of this community you act really oblivious to how loka is ran
First time i agree with supa, +1 I love braces
 
this suggestion would create a more merit based pvp system- rewarding better pvp skills.
I think this is exactly the problem with this suggestion, and I'd say everyone I've seen heavily in favor of this is very much in the "good-at-pvp" camp.

Worse people being able to stay alive (while doing damage), being annoying, doing objectives gives them a place in fights, and makes them feel more impactful and have fun in conquest. If they have to choose between dying while doing damage or living while tickling the enemy, I feel like a lot of bad players will enjoy conquest much less.

Having carries on your team is already a huge deal, and I feel like PVP skill as it is already rewarding enough. Tilting the balance isn't necessarily a positive change. And I think you already will do less damage if you spam KB because you will inevitably get in less hits, if spamming KB was truly superior every carry would just not carry a non-KB sword.

Also, it will make people die more, even if they choose to forego dealing damage to spam KB - the enemy will take much less damage, and basically never have to pot, making it much harder to get a respite if a better player is chasing them (they will have to pause less because fewer refills, and for example, if they are low on pots in inventory while chasing you, if your KB hits deal good damage, they might have to give up the chase after X hits, while if it deals much less damage, they can keep chasing much longer). Overall I think this will do more harm than good for the server, and the motivation behind most people wanting KB nerfed to me feels very much like that better players get annoyed when they cannot kill worse players in a short amount of time.
 
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So they're not allowed to have opinions?
Wrong delivery from me-

I'm not an insanely biased person to the point where I don't consider other people's perspectives- I've sided against many things that I've felt would benefit others a lot more than me i.e when turtle master got nerfed I was for it even though I was in a position of wealth to keep using turtle master and crystal every fight and rack up kills. I knew it was wrong due to its OPness.

My argument for this is we have to consider the purpose of a knockback sword in the current meta for both skilled and less skilled players.
- Skilled Players: KB Swords help them knock charges as well as KB their teammates into others
- Less Skilled Players: KB Swords are used to knock people away that are better than them and help them escape into a more favorable situation
- Middle Ground: Although both skilled and less skilled players use kb to knock away people and kite- from my personal experience (which I'm not going to say overpowers anyone else's rule) is that less skilled players use kb to kite a lot more.

Anyone knows that getting hit with knockback sends you 8 blocks back far out of reach from your enemy, my perspective is that by removing sharpness from KB swords it retains the same purposes as before- but there's been very few that doesn't complain about the usage of KB in fighting "kb spammer" "you only use kb". By enacting this change it doesn't harm anybody except higher the standard of quality of conquest in my opinion. It lets KB be used to knock people away instead of actually fighting full on.

I guess I will end by saying this; in the past, true damage was placed upon bows in order to hinder the ability to be able to bow boost. Bows were still used for their normal purposes till this day; shooting mobs and even shooting players but back then staff agreed to add on a non-vanilla change to bows in order to stop a "cheese" or I guess overpowered mechanic in conquest. You could still bow boost but it came with drawbacks- and that's kind of my standpoint on this KB situation- you can still use kb for knocking people away but now it would be harder to only KB spam which I perceive is a mutual consensus amongst many members of the community.

I'm not a close minded individual, if anybody has an argument I'll hear them out and consider but this is my stance on this issue for now.
 
Wrong delivery from me-

I'm not an insanely biased person to the point where I don't consider other people's perspectives- I've sided against many things that I've felt would benefit others a lot more than me i.e when turtle master got nerfed I was for it even though I was in a position of wealth to keep using turtle master and crystal every fight and rack up kills. I knew it was wrong due to its OPness.

My argument for this is we have to consider the purpose of a knockback sword in the current meta for both skilled and less skilled players.
- Skilled Players: KB Swords help them knock charges as well as KB their teammates into others
- Less Skilled Players: KB Swords are used to knock people away that are better than them and help them escape into a more favorable situation
- Middle Ground: Although both skilled and less skilled players use kb to knock away people and kite- from my personal experience (which I'm not going to say overpowers anyone else's rule) is that less skilled players use kb to kite a lot more.

Anyone knows that getting hit with knockback sends you 8 blocks back far out of reach from your enemy, my perspective is that by removing sharpness from KB swords it retains the same purposes as before- but there's been very few that doesn't complain about the usage of KB in fighting "kb spammer" "you only use kb". By enacting this change it doesn't harm anybody except higher the standard of quality of conquest in my opinion. It lets KB be used to knock people away instead of actually fighting full on.

I guess I will end by saying this; in the past, true damage was placed upon bows in order to hinder the ability to be able to bow boost. Bows were still used for their normal purposes till this day; shooting mobs and even shooting players but back then staff agreed to add on a non-vanilla change to bows in order to stop a "cheese" or I guess overpowered mechanic in conquest. You could still bow boost but it came with drawbacks- and that's kind of my standpoint on this KB situation- you can still use kb for knocking people away but now it would be harder to only KB spam which I perceive is a mutual consensus amongst many members of the community.

I'm not a close minded individual, if anybody has an argument I'll hear them out and consider but this is my stance on this issue for now.
this makes sense because bow boosting used to a very broken mechanic for both good and bad players but the necessary change was made to make it so bows were used for their intended use again. this is very similar to what i am suggesting because kb can still be used for what it is actually intended for (knocking charges, boosting teammates, etc.)
 
+1, i think the idea to make charged players take the same damage as if it were a sharp 5 sword is a very good solution to the problems i've seen ppl bring up against the idea of making kb 2 swords not have sharp 5.

i think mainhanding kb is just a horrible mechanic, bc combat mechanics should have some form of counterplay. this philosophy is what led us to nerfing shields and crystals in the past; i think kb mainhand rn is about half as obnoxious as shields and crystals were back in 2021, and its only going to get worse.

ppl's only incentive to not mainhand kb is honor at the moment, but once ppl stop caring about that, it'll quickly become a race to the bottom where everyone is mostly mainhanding kb so as to knock ppl off their pots instead of using regular swords. is this what we, as a server, want for conquest? do we want kb2 swords to become the primary weapon? that's what's at stake at this stage in the discussion, because without any nerfs or interventions, it WILL become that race to the bottom, and nobody will enjoy that lol
 
+1, i think the idea to make charged players take the same damage as if it were a sharp 5 sword is a very good solution to the problems i've seen ppl bring up against the idea of making kb 2 swords not have sharp 5.

i think mainhanding kb is just a horrible mechanic, bc combat mechanics should have some form of counterplay. this philosophy is what led us to nerfing shields and crystals in the past; i think kb mainhand rn is about half as obnoxious as shields and crystals were back in 2021, and its only going to get worse.

ppl's only incentive to not mainhand kb is honor at the moment, but once ppl stop caring about that, it'll quickly become a race to the bottom where everyone is mostly mainhanding kb so as to knock ppl off their pots instead of using regular swords. is this what we, as a server, want for conquest? do we want kb2 swords to become the primary weapon? that's what's at stake at this stage in the discussion, because without any nerfs or interventions, it WILL become that race to the bottom, and nobody will enjoy that lol
heavily agree, there's a reason why there's no kb at cove and fissure. It simply leads to an undesirable play-style when there isn't a purpose to use them such as knocking charges.
 
I think this is exactly the problem with this suggestion, and I'd say everyone I've seen heavily in favor of this is very much in the "good-at-pvp" camp.

Worse people being able to stay alive (while doing damage), being annoying, doing objectives gives them a place in fights, and makes them feel more impactful and have fun in conquest. If they have to choose between dying while doing damage or living while tickling the enemy, I feel like a lot of bad players will enjoy conquest much less.

Having carries on your team is already a huge deal, and I feel like PVP skill as it is already rewarding enough. Tilting the balance isn't necessarily a positive change. And I think you already will do less damage if you spam KB because you will inevitably get in less hits, if spamming KB was truly superior every carry would just not carry a non-KB sword.

Also, it will make people die more, even if they choose to forego dealing damage to spam KB - the enemy will take much less damage, and basically never have to pot, making it much harder to get a respite if a better player is chasing them (they will have to pause less because fewer refills, and for example, if they are low on pots in inventory while chasing you, if your KB hits deal good damage, they might have to give up the chase after X hits, while if it deals much less damage, they can keep chasing much longer). Overall I think this will do more harm than good for the server, and the motivation behind most people wanting KB nerfed to me feels very much like that better players get annoyed when they cannot kill worse players in a short amount of time.
I have seen this mindset / philosophy more and more recently and I simply do not understand it. I think Cryptite sees things from your point of view as well. I will never understand not wanting to fix or address broken mechanics because bad players can easily abuse those broken mechanics. I had a conversation with Cryptite a bit ago about AIing golems and he brought up the point of giving players who are not very good at PvP a role to play at conquest. I do agree it is important to consider but I think at a certain point this mindset just gets harmful. KB 2 in its current state on Loka is just broken. This is objectively the case. This mechanic was not designed by Mojang with Loka pot pvp in mind. The desync makes the hits look insane and there is no reasonable counter that isnt using it yourself. Like hyper already stated, there is no reason not to use it except "honor" or bragging rights or whatever you may call it. Alot of good players use KB 2 all the time to fight! There just is no reason not to because you can land 2 or 3 crits on someone and send them flying, from their POV the hits look extremely stupid and chances are they get sent off their pots. It is just a broken mechanic. It makes no sense that you can have a sword that sends people flying without some sort of tradeoff or drawback.

As for the whole vanilla server argument I have seen people use, it is simply not worth addressing. I do not see why we are supposed to respect a mechanic or preserve it because it is vanilla. Alot of vanilla mechanics suck, and Loka knows this. Lokas whole thing is the 33% damage boost and theres literally a tip telling you why they chose it ("so that people can die, ever"). Loka has a shield nerf and a crystal nerf, a bow boost nerf, etc.

The priority should always be to address fundamentally broken mechanics. Just because bad players can abuse them does not make the mechanic any less broken. If anything it is quite the contrary. How are people meant to improve if the server hesitates to address nonsensical crutch mechanics that are easy to abuse? Why would any of these players bother getting better, or how could they get better if the server encourages them to rely on stupid mechanics?

For me the logic of the whole thing is simple. You have got your regular sharpness 5 swords, and you have KB 2 Sharpness 5. The KB 2 enchant adds a whole different element of gameplay with no tradeoff. That just should not be the case. I like this suggestion because it does not actually do anything to the way the knockback enchantment itself works, that still works the same! Other suggestions wanted it disabled some places and enabled other places, some people wanted a cooldown etc. but I think a simple tradeoff is the best option. You want to send people flying with crazy desync reliant hits? Thats fine, but those wonky hits of yours will deal less damage. The enchant works all the same. Knock people off cliffs and trees, keep them away from you or away from a teammate, etc. but in order to gain the ability to send people flying like that you get hits that deal less damage. It sounds completely fair to me and it encourages genuine improvement at the game rather than relying on a singular crutch mechanic that was never designed with our gamemode in mind.

Besides, I think critics of suggestion should try to get the broader picture rather than focusing on the specifics. The details can be up to Loka, this suggestion (for me, atleast) is just asking for some kind of nerf to KB swords in order to disincentivize abusing them. There was a time where this playstyle was only really used by a single dude, and the server was just fine. A KB nerf would not be the end of the world. The server and the people playing it were just fine before everyone abused this stupid mechanic 24/7 and it will be just fine when it is finally eventually addressed (hopefully soon, and as a result of this suggestion!)
 
+1

PvP should not be centered around KB swords, it's not a fun meta, and there's a reason it's removed from cove.

But there are still uses for it in conquest, which is why this suggestion is a great idea
 
Ahh yes loka, the most vanilla minecraft server with crystals dealing equal damage, bows doing true damage to yourself, the shield cooldown, no gapples or notch apples, custom items allowing you to teleport to a safezone.

If you're going to try to disagree with UB's suggestion atleast add some substance to it. As a slicer and a long time member of this community you act really oblivious to how loka is ran
As a OG (Slang for original gangster) i have every right to say my opinion on this. I wouldn’t say i make a huge difference to conquest as you recently stated but i make some. I use two knockback swords as my teacher kxyzv does.
 
What about if only the 33% damage boost is removed?
it would still do damage still make people pot the whole point of this suggestion is making the risk reward proportional, the risk of fighting someone without KB is that you are much easier to kill, right now the risk reward is disproportionate because they have the same reward of the damage, by nerfing the damage your nerfing the reward of the weapon keeping the risk the same, while other suggestions in the past have attempted to target the risk part of this weapon this weapon goes after the core issue, that a player mainhanding KB2 is getting the same reward of damage
 
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