Conquest, Beachheads and More!

[Steve5729]

There have been some really good responses to this thread, and I would like to add some input to how I view the implementation of beachheads onto the server.

I would first like to re-mention how beachheads can be balanced and adapted. In the initial post there were some ideas that were already thought of and these player inputs by people like Castalina and Skuhoo do a great deal in helping that. There's a balance to beachheads which is what we are all working towards. So here are some points I want to talk about.
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2. Want to be able to harm enemies on other continents (have everything feel more connected)
3. Want to have an alternative to trading for other continents resources (war for them).

As a player who has had the pleasure to be on both sides of the current loka political system I can say right off the bat that there can be a large gap between continent resources and how you come about to collect them. I think its important to note that this past December was the first time the roofed forest was taken from Silverhand in over a year. Iblis, a pretty inactive alliance for the most part of fall 2019, were able to keep land and not worry about losing their resource control just because they had a few more members then the other sides who could keep the generators full. Had beachheads been in place one could question if the summer-early fall alliance lead by Obstinance would finally have gotten their chance at the dark oak tgen mats that were desperately needed. From a current alliance makeup view of loka its easy to say that the current continent resource system is balanced when you have an alliance your friendly with running garama, however personally I encourage you to look on the other side of the spectrum at alliances who don't. My point here is that thinking beachheads are strictly for war and assuming that the current continent resource system is balanced is false. If a continent alliance wants a resource across another continent and can't trade for it then they should have the ability to fight for it in the high risk fight high reward fight that we want beachheads to become.



Skuhoo mentions loot bundles and also bounty tiles and while they do exist one cannot expect players to use these sole methods to gather materials; sometimes it can be a wild goose chase. As a server we have to have more opportunities for players to gather their materials. By making it so beachhead biome control is only used in town industries, I feel like their is a fair balance to whether a town would like to go out searching for loot bundles or risk it all by beach-heading for biome control.
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4. Not enough big fights involving the whole server.

I feel like given the history of the server, it is surprising how people forget how large beachhead fights truly were. Some of the biggest and best fights in lokan history were from beachheads and actually most of them were from beachheads. A ping in the lokan public discord, a discord of 500+ people, mixed with a warm-up window of 2 hours would surely attract a larger player base than most fights today. Looking at old eldrtichbot logs the beachhead fights back in 2017 actually attracted more players than reins fights nowadays do.

See this log of eldritch vs cincia as an example https://eldritchbot.com/fight?id=rkvVAi56@.
There are many more examples just like this on EB.

The old day beachhead fights were super fun as you would have various sides come together and throw old grudges aside for the sake of peace and prosperity. Think about the Voltarnia's, Katolis's, and other towns who dont get rein pings today. There is a current part of the player base who gets excluded from reins fights. I remember personally that I was able to go to most of the old beachhead fights because of the loka discord ping.
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5. Lack of scaling, no progression. Hit 30 territories and can't get better.

Point five is in my mind the hardest for most people to wrap their minds around since most towns have reached lokas end game so easily. Sure there is ways that world cap policy's can help the lack of scaling but there is only so far they can go. Magpie mentioned in the LCR chat that he is wary of many world capital policy's and how they could potentially overlap the world and continent picks. If anyone any other suggestions you can add them here https://www.lokamc.com/forums/index.php?threads/world-capital-policies.4487/. Another thing that was brought up was granting the world capital the ability to take more tiles on their home continent at no cost. This may seem like a nice boost however personally I would like something more dynamic and allowing continent capitals the ability to beachhead other continents seems like a nice new progression idea. Keep in mind that beachheads do not always mean conflict arises with progression as a foreign alliance could claim neutral land peacefully after winning the initial beachhead. In my mind beachheads are the perfect response to today's lack of scaling.
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Now I've left off points 1 and 6 because I've already wrote so much and I'll let you all digest this.

From a conquest enthusiast perspective I welcome the idea of a new beachhead system back with open arms. It was these fights that back in the old days drove my dedication to the server. Fighting with different players you have never fought with, fighting in foreign places, and fighting with the big dogs is what made them so fun. I and many others I talk to hope that we can continue to discuss and find a balance for the implementation of beachheads

Heres a crappy edited but hella fun beachhead video from 2017 I recorded. Enjoy

I went back and looked at some of the fights that happened around the same time as beach heads. On average Beach heads attract about 5-7 more players than other reins fight did. Only about 2-3 of these players were from towns that weren't allied to or related to the towns involved.

 

[Sparky___]

I would first like to re-mention how beachheads can be balanced and adapted.

I would like to bring attention to this mentality, simply because there is this notion that beach heads have to happen I think that was firmly implied by Magpie's original response (which essentially read like a get on board or get out of the way) to both Skuhoo's and my own response. I think that is a very blatantly unfair decision to make, given the apparent lack of consideration given to the impact of a legitimate 180 degree decision.

As a player who has had the pleasure to be on both sides of the current loka political system I can say right off the bat that there can be a large gap between continent resources and how you come about to collect them. I think its important to note that this past December was the first time the roofed forest was taken from Silverhand in over a year. Iblis, a pretty inactive alliance for the most part of fall 2019, were able to keep land and not worry about losing their resource control just because they had a few more members then the other sides who could keep the generators full. Had beachheads been in place one could question if the summer-early fall alliance lead by Obstinance would finally have gotten their chance at the dark oak tgen mats that were desperately needed.

Not sure how this discussion has come to disregarding reality, but Iblis did in fact lose control of those biomes more than once in the past year. Moreover, it is factually inaccurate to claim that opposition forces did not have the opportunity to get at those resources, because I know first hand that Stromgarde did collect and store those resources. At the end of the summer they won world cap and quit the server, giving me their supplies to store in my town, which consisted of a considerable amount of spruce wood and other restricted resources. This idea that biome restricted resources are impossibly unattainable is flat out false and just a talking point people want to use to promote this system and it is insufferably frustrating to listen to. Loka's economy is already far too rewarding to anyone willing to put in the time, there needs to be more ways to lose wealth, not more ways to gain it.

4. Not enough big fights involving the whole server.
I feel like given the history of the server, it is surprising how people forget how large beachhead fights truly were. Some of the biggest and best fights in lokan history were from beachheads and actually most of them were from beachheads. A ping in the lokan public discord, a discord of 500+ people, mixed with a warm-up window of 2 hours would surely attract a larger player base than most fights today. Looking at old eldrtichbot logs the beachhead fights back in 2017 actually attracted more players than reins fights nowadays do.

While it is fair to say that beach heads make up some of the largest fights of the server's past, the context of beach heads around late 2017 and early 2018 is that fight participation in general was already pretty significant. Consider that this was the rise of Jotunheimer and the birth of the Elysian Pact after the already considerable growth of the Kalros Coalition. It is easy to cherry pick logs or "statistics" to support the claim that beach heads directly translate to the largest fights ever, but that is not a given.

 

[Borne_]

beech head were fun bak den, i fink they fun now +1 to them :3

 

[Unallowed]

I have nothing really to add to the points that have already previously been stated by Skuhoo, Sparky, and all the others who are stating their disapproval.

 

[SmiGuy]

I'm not good at arguing something like this, so I'll leave it to the others who have already talked about their disliking to this form of beachheads. Basically, I agree with Sparky and Skuhoo.

 

[Jammin_Mas]

I would like to bring attention to this mentality, simply because there is this notion that beach heads have to happen I think that was firmly implied by Magpie's original response (which essentially read like a get on board or get out of the way) to both Skuhoo's and my own response. I think that is a very blatantly unfair decision to make, given the apparent lack of consideration given to the impact of a legitimate 180 degree decision.

Magpie has brought up six points to discuss, and so far besides stating that you disagree with all of them, not to mention your initial post of using out of context evidence on how players only want beachheads for the "fun fights" you have still failed to address how to fix these problems and your continued responses to them make them relevant issues in my eyes. So far I have still seen no solutions or recommendations on this other than WE MUST END THIS BEACHHEAD NONSENSE RIGHT NOW!!

Not sure how this discussion has come to disregarding reality, but Iblis did in fact lose control of those biomes more than once in the past year. Moreover, it is factually inaccurate to claim that opposition forces did not have the opportunity to get at those resources, because I know first hand that Stromgarde did collect and store those resources. At the end of the summer they won world cap and quit the server, giving me their supplies to store in my town, which consisted of a considerable amount of spruce wood and other restricted resources. This idea that biome restricted resources are impossibly unattainable is flat out false and just a talking point people want to use to promote this system and it is insufferably frustrating to listen to.

I was not talking about spruce, which is an obviously a very abundant material. I specifically mentioned in my post that I was using the roofed forest and its dark oak as an example of a resource that was hard to come by. I'm not disregarding reality when its a fact that silverhand did not lose the roofed forest until this December. There are infact biomes on the server that are very restricted to the point where some of the player base should have alternative abilities to gather them if trading does not work. The fact that stating all resources on loka are easy obtainable is flat out false and just a talking point people want to use to negate this system and it is insufferably frustrating to listen to.

Loka's economy is already far too rewarding to anyone willing to put in the time, there needs to be more ways to lose wealth, not more ways to gain it.

Once again I question how much you have actually looked the initial post by magpie and what we are saying. As of now there is no high risk high reward system on loka and beachheads are the perfect solution. It was specifically said that there would be an insane amount of risk in beachheads. This can be used as a shard sink in a sense where it will be very expensive to place a beachhead to begin with. Oh wait? Jammin the server is already insanely rich and shards do not matter? Well adding a 10k-20k initial placement cost will sure put a dent in someones balance, and be a nice way to get rid of some of the wealth.

A possible solution:

I have no idea why this wasn't already brought up but there's been an idea that you can attack bountiful territories on other continents. This feels like it fixes most of the problems here as it essentially fixes most of the problems with beach heads and current conquest.

Invasions / Airship Invasions:

The capital of any continent can attack any bountiful (or another type that's made just for this) territory that is owned by another capital. This fight is automatically reins and pings everyone in the Loka discord. The resources from the bountiful automatically cash into the winner's NPC even if defenders win, so no second chances. If the attackers win the tile isn't neutralized but any radar or modules stay destroyed.

It's also possible being able to do invasions could be it's own world cap policy which adds tons of incentive for balak.

Now Steve has had a good start here with coming up with a solution or compromise here. However as discussed this morning with him there is no stake for the bountiful placement he suggests due to it having no risk. There is no stakes to a bounty placement, its made to have a surplus. Still a good start though.

Also as for the loka pipeline, its something that we discuss in the LCR chat alot and while most of you may be worrying that the implementation of beachheads may be postponing some future updates its simply not. Perhaps a state of the server given that the elders have time could do some good. But there is a open window for the implementation of beachheads without halting further updates.

All in all you guys are still failing to meet the 6 points and provide an accurate reason or description as to how to fix them other than immediately shutting down the beachhead idea. I think that once things are narrowed down and some values and rules are put in place people will migrate their opinion away from the idea that beachheads are only made for groups to come to my continent and screw me over.

-They are far more than that.

 

[Steak__]

i agree with the additions of beachheads please add them

 

[Sparky___]

Magpie has brought up six points to discuss, and so far besides stating that you disagree with all of them, not to mention your initial post of using out of context evidence on how players only want beachheads for the "fun fights" you have still failed to address how to fix these problems and your continued responses to them make them relevant issues in my eyes. So far I have still seen no solutions or recommendations on this other than WE MUST END THIS BEACHHEAD NONSENSE RIGHT NOW!!

The discussion is centered around both how to address these issues AND whether or not these are actual issues. Feel free to reread my posts at your leisure, I am concerned you may have missed a few things. That being said, it is not a necessity that I come up with a solution simply because I disagree with the proposed system. Since you raise a valid point, however, I will indulge you. It was my comments that prompted Steve to bring up the previously suggested bountiful territory idea, something I also raised with Cryptite & Magpie in another setting. With that in mind, it is a good time to point out there is a lot of behind the scenes discussion about beach heads being had that should at this point be had here so everyone can take part in it directly.

I have no idea why this wasn't already brought up but there's been an idea that you can attack bountiful territories on other continents. This feels like it fixes most of the problems here as it essentially fixes most of the problems with beach heads and current conquest.

The capital of any continent can attack any bountiful (or another type that's made just for this) territory that is owned by another capital. This fight is automatically reins and pings everyone in the Loka discord. The resources from the bountiful automatically cash into the winner's NPC even if defenders win, so no second chances. If the attackers win the tile isn't neutralized but any radar or modules stay destroyed.

I was not talking about spruce, which is an obviously a very abundant material. I specifically mentioned in my post that I was using the roofed forest and its dark oak as an example of a resource that was hard to come by. I'm not disregarding reality when its a fact that silverhand did not lose the roofed forest until this December. There are infact biomes on the server that are very restricted to the point where some of the player base should have alternative abilities to gather them if trading does not work. The fact that stating all resources on loka are easy obtainable is flat out false and just a talking point people want to use to negate this system and it is insufferably frustrating to listen to

Spruce and dark oak have historically been the hardest resources to attain on Loka, it is a distortion of reality to pretend otherwise, example or not. Roofed forest or not, Silverhand still lost control of the spruce forest, which speaks volumes, and also lost world capital. I feel like we can all agree that from a trading perspective spruce and dark oak are nearly one and the same. Your point is as shaky as some of the people I sell alcohol to at 8 in the morning.

Once again I question how much you have actually looked the initial post by magpie and what we are saying. As of now there is no high risk high reward system on loka and beachheads are the perfect solution. It was specifically said that there would be an insane amount of risk in beachheads. This can be used as a shard sink in a sense where it will be very expensive to place a beachhead to begin with. Oh wait? Jammin the server is already insanely rich and shards do not matter? Well adding a 10k-20k initial placement cost will sure put a dent in someones balance, and be a nice way to get rid of some of the wealth.

I am inclined to agree that there is indeed no high risk high reward system on Loka. That does not necessitate that beach heads be implemented, especially given the outstanding concerns that people are blatantly ignoring, because they are fueled by this (very fair) nostalgia. This undermines the argument that beach heads will limit/remove the need for players to move continents, which is probably one of the most pressing perceived issues. In my post I addressed the problem the high risk portion of beach heads raises. I will share it here for you in case you missed it in my lengthy post.

The second being that, bearing in mind the eventualities that can occur in the future and trying to think outside the mindset of "what is happening now." Some groups may decide that beach heading another continent ultimately isn't worth the cost given the possibility they might not win. Thus, opting to instead physically move continents to achieve the same result.

Now Steve has had a good start here with coming up with a solution or compromise here. However as discussed this morning with him there is no stake for the bountiful placement he suggests due to it having no risk. There is no stakes to a bounty placement, its made to have a surplus. Still a good start though.

Yeah, you are right here that the issue with this suggestion is there is limited risk involved, but I am convinced most people only really care about the large fights and being able to mess with other continents. I feel like this issue can be overlooked by the majority of people. That being said, there are alternatives that could be very easily implemented into Loka for resource sinks. Chief among them being drastically increasing the cost of town upkeeps.

Also as for the loka pipeline, its something that we discuss in the LCR chat alot and while most of you may be worrying that the implementation of beachheads may be postponing some future updates its simply not. Perhaps a state of the server given that the elders have time could do some good. But there is a open window for the implementation of beachheads without halting further updates.

You are pretty optimistic about the development pipeline if you think that this has zero impact on it. The reality of the situation is that development of anything takes time and it is important to consider that. Any suggested solution to the perceived issues will require an amount of time that can be spent doing something else. That is how development works and I know there are players that feel time could be spent less on Conquest changes and on various other things instead, whether or not they require Crypt to accomplish them.

Lastly, I want to emphasize that the lack of an alternative idea, does not mean beach heads are the sole way forward. Nor does it mean that the issues I or other people have with this system should be ignored.

The absence of players' individual opinions as opposed to them showing their support through likes or via their LCRs does not mean they should just be ignored. Whether they favor or do not favor the implementation of beach heads. Not everyone wants to take the time to break down their thoughts.

 

[Borne_]

aftur being in voice calls wif dan, joby, sprkay, n some rando oldy named 'sputnic', they say they wunt loka to updade to 1 dot 5iften fur more content. they fink the beech head r bad n serve no purpose. dan losin more hair thn he can gro, and spraky drinkin mor n mor alcohol. I fink fer dan sake n spraky, we skip the bechead n go updade to curent gen minecraft. da beecheads soun fun, bud we ned mor time to realy fink abot it.

 

[Xlan]

COUNTER POINT

 

[Arvein]

beachhead no make cov win beachhad bad remove beachhead

 

[koi0001]

I appreciate the work put into the paragraphs but is it not possible to make this all more concise?

 

[Adzy]

I appreciate the work put into the paragraphs but is it not possible to make this all more concise?

It's a formal mineman discussion. Please don't be silly Koi!

 

[Haldyir]

As I'm sure we can go pages on this topic, as we already have It's very apparent to me that we can't see eye to eye, nor do I think the opposing part against this idea will either, based on their quoted responses. Both sides have voiced themselves on the topic, but I believe we need to hear a final solution on if we are actually getting the mechanic or are we not. That way we can move forward and talk about the next steps and idea generation. If this topic remains open, all I see happening now is people passive-aggressively / obsessively quoting each other, having backlash to comments. Although I can see the positive intentions out of this, this may get repetitive. However, at the end of the day, Mag and Crypt can clearly see there are some of us who want this very badly and some of us who don't and I think at the end of it all that's what they wanted to see.

Each side is perfectly entitled to their opinion, but let this be known, nothing is a fact. It's simply an opinion and we need to remember that no matter how strongly each side feels.

 

[Evil_X]

I'll just drop a quick thing down.
While I appreciate that these issues are being looked at beachheads won't fix everything and shouldn't be this all saving grace. I feel a lot of the issues with conquest go back way down to the core of how it's built up. If things are truly to change I feel conquest needs to be completely relooked at from the ground up and needs to be rebuilt.
Until things are completely reworked these issues can't be solved by simply putting all your eggs in the beachhead basket and hoping things work out.

I realise this is a very short vague post but I feel many voices have been heard and I'm not gonna be the one to drive this topic in a whole different direction. I'm one of those people who dislike Balak and would like to see the continents put together into a huge one continent, three island war but realise it's unlikely Loka's ever gonna be able to take a plunge in that direction.
I agree we need a change but this solution ain't the right way to go.

 

[SigmaFlash]

aftur being in voice calls wif dan, joby, sprkay, n some rando oldy named 'sputnic', they say they wunt loka to updade to 1 dot 5iften fur more content. they fink the beech head r bad n serve no purpose. dan losin more hair thn he can gro, and spraky drinkin mor n mor alcohol. I fink fer dan sake n spraky, we skip the bechead n go updade to curent gen minecraft. da beecheads soun fun, bud we ned mor time to realy fink abot it.

born i fink u had two much alohol becus crpytit sayd that 1 dot 5iften updat haz to weight cebause 1 dot fiveteen has mani bug

 

[Skuhoo]

born i fink u had two much alohol becus crpytit sayd that 1 dot 5iften updat haz to weight cebause 1 dot fiveteen has mani bug

Where'd you hear that? We skipped 1.14 because it was a laggy mess but 1.15 is much better and has become the current main version for paper. The only thing I've heard that's remotely close to what you're saying is that we wanted to wait for Optifine to update but it was updated for 1.15 a few days ago.

 

[FateStay]

Each continent is controlled by one alliance so I think that beachheads would help that. Just make it a bit more risky and fun tbh but I haven't read the 50+ paragraphs.

 

[Kaph]

I agree with many of the points against adding beach heads, for which there are a lot. It's been mentioned before, but I think it's quite irresponsible to act as though beach heads would fix the current Conquest system (and no, I don't have to provide my own solutions to believe that). From my perspective, the arguments in this thread against beach heads seem to outweigh the minimal arguments for them. I think that it would be careless to add beach heads because of that, but that's just my two shards.

Nothing wrong with going back to the drawing board.

 

[koi0001]

but that's just my two shards.

Nice kaph, I see what you did there