Keep-On-Death during Balak Vulnerability

[Cryptite]

Just letting you guys know of an upcoming planned change to how Balak works during vuln period. The short of it is that we require you to do this Marathon-style rush to place Inhibs on Balak. As a result, this is basically a Conquest Minigame on Balak and should be subject to the same rules and regulations of your natural Conquest Battle. For this reason, we mean to make it so that Balak becomes Keep-on-Death during its vuln window.

Understandably this does not appeal to everyone, so bring forth your comments!

 

[GoodAtTheGame]

i think that is very much goodatthegame.

 

[Kaph]

As many are aware, there are the two predominant forms of PvP on the server. Keep-on-death Conquest fights, obviously, and the 'gank'-style wilds fights. Personally, I have been enjoying the new gank fighting opportunities that have been provided by Balak - considering it has usually been the rarer form of PvP. I think that it would be a shame to remove these opportunities (and therefore also removing an extra element of variety) in favour of an already dominant form.

 

[Malen]

Kaph covered some of what I wanted to say, but what I would like to add though is Balak, intentionally or not, took away all Conquest on continents minus a few fights here and there on Garama, and most gank PvP as well. I feel that making Balak KOD will further narrow down the diversity of PvP on Loka which is already a rather zoomed scoped.

When you try and bring players or large groups to play on a server one of the biggest things you want to have on your server is diversity in as many ways as possible, Loka has plenty of room for those who like to build, trade, roleplay, etc. The main issue you are looking at though is Loka is a niche community out of the 1.12.2 only servers. When you then couple that with the fact that you already have essentially limited pvp to a two hour window which only actually amounts to at most a 1 hour long plus the short pvp prior to and after placing, you're shrinking that already small window into something even more tiny. Is that what we really want to aim for? In the name of keeping Balak conquest orientated?

What I am getting at is most servers don't use KoD and while it's application in Conquest makes 100% sense. Although applying it to related scenarios starts to push what makes sense and what is just making things too easy and more importantly alienates what new players already know and have in their skill set from prior experience playing the game. In addition not to mention, a large majority of people that PvP, outside of Loka, would agree that getting the gear of someone you kill plays a decent sized factor into the risk and reward of PvP and more importantly to Loka, the fun of PvP. Large changes like this only being brought up after strategies of camping tiles thus causing more fights and PvP to occur seems extremely counter productive to what you would want on Loka and I don't see it being a good idea for the longevity of Loka. Lastly before the argument of a future 3rd, 4th, or even 5th side coming to Balak that would need this kind of change to be able to participate, I ask this, why should a group that can't fund their own battles have the server implement a handicap so they can? And even with that handicap if they can't afford to re-gear themselves after suffering a few deaths, how did they get to Balak in the first place? I seriously think this needs to be thought on long and hard.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

 

[DFG1125]

In my personal opinion, I like the 'gank' style fighting. It's a bit of a rush to not die, even though I do a lot. Like Malen said, removing this would make the PvP on the server boring more so than it already is.

 

[Adzy]

Guys remember this is only during vuln, I like the sound of it being keep on death, now we will have big fights where people don’t run after using 3 pots because they’re worried about losing gear lol, and then get the actual conquest fight too.

 

[Malen]

Guys remember this is only during vuln, I like the sound of it being keep on death, now we will have big fights where people don’t run after using 3 pots because they’re worried about losing gear lol, and then get the actual conquest fight too.

> Guys remember this is only during vuln

You might as well have said, Guys remember this is only during the time pvp happens. If you want to tell me Balak has PvP on it outside of the vuln period you're memeing me. I don't mean to be crude but this seems like such a narrow minded thought.

In addition,

> now we will have big fights where people don’t run after using 3 pots because they’re worried about losing gear

Having been to every gank fight this month on Balak, I don't recall a single fight where people instantly kited, I will admit thought after a side started to get pushed on to their back foot they would kite, but this was after multiple deaths to the respective side.

 

[GoodAtTheGame]

But Keep on Death encourages more fighting to happen for the actual land (instead of just a plain marathon). People are going to be less worried about losing their stuff and more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land.

 

[Walkers]

But Keep on Death encourages more fighting to happen for the actual land (instead of just a plain marathon). People are going to be less worried about losing their stuff and more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land.

The objective is to get to the tile, kill anyone keeping you combat tagged if needed and place. How does KoD effect this in any way?

 

[Malen]

But Keep on Death encourages more fighting to happen for the actual land (instead of just a plain marathon). People are going to be less worried about losing their stuff and more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land.

I am sorry but you're putting forth ideas that don't correlate with each other and nor do they really make sense.

> But Keep on Death encourages more fighting to happen for the actual land (instead of just a plain marathon).

How? I can very easily say the inverse without reasoning and pose it as an argument and you would wonder why I said that, would you not? When you're proposing your opinions and thoughts you need to also give your reasoning behind it or else you make flimsy statements that won't be taken all too seriously.

> People are going to be less worried about losing their stuff and more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land.

Mind elaborating on this one? Especially the "more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land." I would think at best there is a very weak correlation between KoD being enabled or not and, if I am assuming/understanding what you're saying correctly, people trying to place on a tile.

 

[Adzy]

> Guys remember this is only during vuln

You might as well have said, Guys remember this is only during the time pvp happens. If you want to tell me Balak has PvP on it outside of the vuln period you're memeing me. I don't mean to be crude but this seems like such a narrow minded thought.

In addition,

> now we will have big fights where people don’t run after using 3 pots because they’re worried about losing gear

Having been to every gank fight this month on Balak, I don't recall a single fight where people instantly kited, I will admit thought after a side started to get pushed on to their back foot they would kite, but this was after multiple deaths to the respective side.

Lol, I still like the sound of it.

 

[Adzy]

I am sorry but you're putting forth ideas that don't correlate with each other and nor do they really make sense.

> But Keep on Death encourages more fighting to happen for the actual land (instead of just a plain marathon).

How? I can very easily say the inverse without reasoning and pose it as an argument and you would wonder why I said that, would you not? When you're proposing your opinions and thoughts you need to also give your reasoning behind it or else you make flimsy statements that won't be taken all too seriously.

> People are going to be less worried about losing their stuff and more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land.

Mind elaborating on this one? Especially the "more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land." I would think at best there is a very weak correlation between KoD being enabled or not and, if I am assuming/understanding what you're saying correctly, people trying to place on a tile.

Think he means they’re not going to be worrying about dying and losing everything and actually focusing on kills

 

[Malen]

Lol, I still like the sound of it.

That isn't responding to the argument, can you respond to the points we both made?

 

[Malen]

Think he means they’re not going to be worrying about dying and losing everything and actually focusing on kills

Yes, that is what he said, and in my response I said

> Mind elaborating on this one? Especially the "more concentrated on eliminating their enemies and ACTUALLY win the land." I would think at best there is a very weak correlation between KoD being enabled or not and, if I am assuming/understanding what you're saying correctly, people trying to place on a tile.

I am asking if he could elaborate on how KoD changes if people try to get kills and/or place an inhib on a tile. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also in addition,

> Think he means they’re not going to be worrying about dying and losing everything and actually focusing on kills

Why should people not have to worry about living? You take away a large amount of skill involved in PvP as people play very differently if there is or isn't KoD. Laslty there is an inherent advantage in getting a players items upon death, especially mid-fight.

 

[Adzy]

That isn't responding to the argument, can you respond to the points we both made?

I didn’t come here to argue? I just came here to say why I like it lol

 

[Mrp]

Hey Malen, saw you wanted someone to reply to your points specifically so I will try to do that. This is coming from my perspective as a player, not as a guardian. Would like to start by saying I think you made a lot of good points and I agree with most of what you said but did see some things that I thought were a little exaggerated, I'll get into it.

When you try and bring players or large groups to play on a server one of the biggest things you want to have on your server is diversity in as many ways as possible, Loka has plenty of room for those who like to build, trade, roleplay, etc. The main issue you are looking at though is Loka is a niche community out of the 1.12.2 only servers. When you then couple that with the fact that you already have essentially limited pvp to a two hour window which only actually amounts to at most a 1 hour long plus the short pvp prior to and after placing, you're shrinking that already small window into something even more tiny. Is that what we really want to aim for? In the name of keeping Balak conquest orientated?

This is a great point, with the way conquest has changed it does seem limited in a sense for sure. Diversity in PvP is also something that needs to be considered as well, diversity is always a great thing to be able to offer. What I don't think holds weight in this argument is that this change somehow further shrinks the pvp that would take place with KoD or without KoD. The same race and the same fights will happen regardless of the change. The only thing that might change because of this is that more people that aren't as confident in their pvp ability will come out as well, since they know that even if they die they won't lose their gear.

What I am getting at is most servers don't use KoD and while it's application in Conquest makes 100% sense. Although applying it to related scenarios starts to push what makes sense and what is just making things too easy and more importantly alienates what new players already know and have in their skill set from prior experience playing the game. In addition not to mention, a large majority of people that PvP, outside of Loka, would agree that getting the gear of someone you kill plays a decent sized factor into the risk and reward of PvP and more importantly to Loka, the fun of PvP.

Another good point, I really like that you pointed out the risk vs. reward thing. That is something that I love about fighting in the wilds and I know the Ganksquad™ loves as well. Taking out more risk vs. reward in a server that is already set up to make it very difficult to be able to kill and loot an enemy does feel bad. I think the only thing I would come against here is when you said this change would alienate players and somehow affect their skill set. I don't see how adding KoD would impact a players ability or skillset, they would simply not be rewarded with gear for their victory. This change does nothing to change how combat works or the necessity of running to the pad which will put people in combat and the player with the better skillset will usually come out on top regardless of this change.

Large changes like this only being brought up after strategies of camping tiles thus causing more fights and PvP to occur seems extremely counter productive to what you would want on Loka and I don't see it being a good idea for the longevity of Loka. Lastly before the argument of a future 3rd, 4th, or even 5th side coming to Balak that would need this kind of change to be able to participate, I ask this, why should a group that can't fund their own battles have the server implement a handicap so they can? And even with that handicap if they can't afford to re-gear themselves after suffering a few deaths, how did they get to Balak in the first place? I seriously think this needs to be thought on long and hard.

I see where you are coming from here, I think this makes sense for sure. Overall I can't say I love the fact that this change will take out the risk and reward aspects of the game. The question you pose here is fair as well, but I don't think anyone on Balak currently has an issue with gear. The change wouldn't be to implement a handicap per se, it is being brought about (based on what crypt said) because people are required to do it, since it is becoming a part of Balak conquest I can see why they would want to implement a change like this. I may not agree with it 100% but I do see that aspect at least. In wilds fights, for example, one side has decided to take the risk of going out somewhere they can be fought by their own volition, enemies can also come of their own volition and fight them for their gear. On Balak both sides are required to show up at the beginning and do this world race at a time set by the server.

I hope I responded to your points thoroughly enough, overall I would say this change won't be a huge deal but I will miss the risk and reward aspects that you pointed out. Thanks for voicing your thoughts and concerns.

 

[Walkers]

people are required to do it

I think this isn't true. People aren't required to go for the 'hottest' tile of the day, they could sneak off to the side and claim on a different tile without any risk and have two hours or so to do it.

 

[Mrp]

I think this isn't true. People aren't required to go for the 'hottest' tile of the day, they could sneak off to the side and claim on a different tile without any risk and have two hours or so to do it.

That's fair, but the tiles that we are both going for are obviously for a reason. It is a requirement to be there if you want to get the ones you want. I guess you can just roll over and let the other side have whatever they want but to actually be competitive on Balak it would seem like a requirement to get there right away.

Gotta win conquest 3: tic tac toe reborn!

 

[Walkers]

That's fair, but the tiles that we are both going for are obviously for a reason. It is a requirement to be there if you want to get the ones you want. I guess you can just roll over and let the other side have whatever they want but to actually be competitive on Balak it would seem like a requirement to get there right away.

Gotta win conquest 3: tic tac toe reborn!

Also important to remember that at a point this marathon malarkey will stop and people can settle things where needed over conquest.

 

[OperaGhost2004]

I think that just having KoD in battle zones works better