Melon
Active Member
First off, massive +1, if this plugin gets implemented it is motivation enough for me to return to mc and loka. There are so many things that I want to address in this post and about this plugin, as I truly believe that this plugin solves one of the core issues that has plagued Minecraft ever since the release of 1.9. Obviously it is now possible to combo high ping players, but this is not what I am directly referring to. I think that the greatest aspect of this plugin is that it "bridges the gap" so to speak between the skill ceiling for a low ms duel and a high ms duel, while also raising the skill ceiling in general, whether it is low ms vs high ms or just high ms vs high ms. In order to try and make this more coherent / make more sense, I will first go over one of the core mechanics of the game, which is arguably THE most important, and shapes 1.9 pvp itself: hit selecting.
While I do want to isolate and analyze this aspect of the game alone, I do think it is worth stating some information that provides important context. This was stated earlier in the thread, but the players new velocity after a hit is calculated server side, and applied client side. For example, if two players with identical mirrored velocities run at each other, and both hit at 3 blocks (or any distance equal to each other), they will both experience kb at the exact same time regardless of either of the player's ping, the difference is in the actual kb they experience based on their velocity at the time the hit registered with server. Also, the higher the value of these players combined ping, the later that the kb will be applied (the players will be closer together). When I refer to momentum, it is generally their momentum towards you, not that generated by falling after taking kb, as well as a lot of times I should technically use the term speed instead of velocity but wtv.
When most people think of hit selecting, they either think of just waiting for the other person to hit before attacking in order to secure or a combo (or just the next hit) without the other player being able to hit back. Or, some people don't even know what it is. But I think it is better to more fully expand this concept to encompass all instances of players trading hits. In every trade, there is a theoretical optimal time to hit the opponent, which will generate you the greatest advantage possible. This advantage is most accurately described as the greatest difference between you and your opponents velocity towards each other, while also guaranteeing that the next opportunity to hit is yours. This can more generally be described as how much earlier you will reach the ground before your opponent after taking KB, while they are unable to hit you. In other words, you will be able to generate momentum towards the opponent higher than what is possible for them, as they will land on the ground later than you due to the fact that they took kb after you. The optimal time to hit in order to achieve this depends on 4 factors: your opponent's current distance from you, your opponent's current velocity, your current velocity, and their ping (if we are speaking relative to your perspective). While I explain these first 3 factors, assume or try to think of a scenario that is relatively normal, or not heavily effected by ping. I believe it is best to think of ping as a modifier to all of your decisions, which is best to go over last as it will only make it more difficult explaining everything else. Your opponent's current distance from you is arguably the most important factor in determining when to hit. While all of these other factors are dependent on one another, this factor determines whether you are playing in order to generate an advantage for yourself through momentum, or if it is better to play in relation to health advantage(exclude health advantage/crit trades for now, I will address that later). It is also the determining variable which all other factors are dependent on. For your opponent's current velocity, it is best to break this into both their current vertical and horizontal velocities, as they both play somewhat different parts. Assuming a vertical velocity greater or equal to 0, their horizontal velocity is used to determine what their velocity will be after you hit them. This can also be thought of as how much kb they will take. A lower horizontal velocity means they will move farther after you hit them, and a higher one means they will move less. However, the players vertical velocity plays into this in a different way. If your opponent has a negative vertical velocity, you will have to determine whether hitting them while they are falling or waiting for them to land will generate you the greatest advantage. If you are to hit them while they are falling, their new horizontal velocity (based on their previous horizontal velocity) will be applied for less time, as they will land and begin generating momentum again sooner. Opposite this, a positive vertical velocity (such as right after they jump) means their new horizontal velocity will be applied for a greater amount of time, as they will be in the air for a greater amount of time, not being able to begin generating momentum again until they reach the ground. Your own velocity is important similar to how your opponent's velocity is, it will determine where you will be after you hit, as well as how you will move after you are hit, whether you expect to take normal kb based on your velocity, or you jump reset to change this. While all of these are separate factors, they all play into the optimal time to hit, as when you account for each of these you are left with which hit timing results in the greatest advantage. While this is all true in a theoretical sense, it is generally not practical to try and achieve this optimal timing every hit. If this was the case, people would always be hitting at the last possible moment before them getting hit would make it impossible to generate an advantage. Most of the time people are hitting around 3 blocks, as this also forces the other player to hit around the same distance. Knowing that the other player is more likely to hit at max distance is generally what makes hit selects possible, as most of the time it is not possible for the player to react quick enough to hit select, or hit before the optimal time has passed, without knowing the distance the other player will hit at. Otherwise, both players would be hitting as close to this optimal time as possible, resulting in either an extremely minimal advantage being gained, or attempting to hit right before the other player decides the same, making this more of a coinflip and not a consistent approach. This is why people may find fights within the mid ranges of ms quite annoying, as the other player has much more time to react to a hit and hit select, while still not being within reach for the opponent's next hit. I think that this connects nicely to the fourth factor, and the reason this thread exists: Ping.
In relation to the other three factors, I think it is best to think of ping as simply an offset, while it does also possess other properties. (Assume your own ping as 0 or a constant factor). Regarding the distance the other player is away from you and their current velocity, you will have to use their ping to determine the location they will be at when kb is applied. For your own current velocity, if/when it changes due to the other player hitting you, you now must now know how much sooner you need to hit based on their ping in order to still generate an advantage. This is where playing against high ping initially gets a little more difficult. Sometimes, the other player's ping is high enough that the offset amount results in you no longer being able to generate an advantage, as it will take so long for the kb to be applied that the player will still be close enough to hit you. The result of this is, if you want to take the purely optimal approach to generate an advantage, this advantage will be so minimal it is hardly worth doing (exclude your health for now). You will technically have an advantage, but it will never result in you getting a hit without your opponent being able to hit back (unless your opponent continuously hits early). This is why, again in a more practical way of approaching this, if you want to generate an advantage it is generally best to start off by hitting at 3 blocks. Through doing this you force the other player to hit back relatively quickly, although in this case it is not about their reaction speed, but due to the fact that going for a late hit here will not generate an advantage as they will be too close to you allowing you to hit back. While hitting at this distance may put you at an immediate disadvantage, the disadvantage is relatively small. They will have a greater velocity towards you and be able to hit first, but it will not necessarily result in them gaining a greater advantage as you will still have the ability to hit back. Through putting yourself in disadvantage, you have also altered the circumstances from what they were originally, neither player has had the opportunity to generate much velocity towards each other yet, meaning that it is now possible to hit select the next hit. However, as the ping gets even higher, another property is introduced. The previous scenario was assuming it was still possible to combo the other player, as they would not have a negative velocity when it was best to go for your next hit. When this is not the case, the other players velocity will never not be negative in order to secure the next hit. In other words, if a player's ping is high enough, you will not be able to even set up a hit select through the method mentioned before, unless you started the trade when their vertical velocity was not equal to 0. More specifically, outside of rare scenarios, the first four factors will never be of values that produce an optimal time to hit, you will basically always be put in disadvantage. (Again in a theoretical sense, but it is hardly different in a practical one where it is only possible to generate advantage in rare instances and unique scenarios, which will be explained in this next section). With this said, against high ping players it is almost never optimal to play to generate advantage this way, which is why a different part of the game becomes much more central: Health advantage. Before this, I was speaking almost exclusively from the perspective of a neutral trade, as in both players are on equal health. Health advantage is basically you being on higher health than your opponent during a trade (or equal health with first hit), which can be better put as just forcing your opponent to have to pot before you do. This is so important due to the fact that you are free to do anything during this time, you can follow with a crit chain, quickly refill, or just pot yourself. But probably the most important aspect of this is the fact that the player, while having to turn to pot, effectively resets their velocity. They have to turn to pot, and then turn back again to try and generate momentum towards you, while you have been moving towards them this entire time. This difference in velocity gives you a large advantage, and it is here that you technically have the ability to set up a hit select. I say this because, generally, it is almost never worth playing for, as this advantage will be practically negated on the next trade, and it would have just been better to just continue playing for health advantage by critting.
This is where we get to the real difference of high ping. While it is possible to generate advantage in the way originally mentioned through crits, to also contribute to health advantage(all the same concepts still apply, just change your effect on the opponents velocity), the advantage gained is minimal, the only thing you gain is a singular extra hit whose main contribution is to health advantage anyways. This is also combined with the fact that on higher pings, in order to get this singular extra hit through advantage, you will typically have to perfectly execute a series of multiple hits in a trade, so that all of the four factors allow a crit to gain advantage. For the average person, it is not possible to intentionally set up a trade for a hit select in this way, and it is typically just recognized during the trade that a hit select like this is possible. Maybe players that have played on high ping for a long time can speak to this, I assume it gets easier the more you play, but I don't see a way where people could set this up from a neutral position at all, only recognize it during the trade or just instinctually know the best times to hit after having played on/against high ping for enough time. This is in stark contrast to the role that this concept plays in lower ping fights, where securing this hit leads to a combo where any number of pots could be drained based on how well the combo is held. I speak of these two so differently as while a crit chain burns pots more quickly, escaping from it is mostly based on how good you are at actually escaping it (although it is generally not possible to immediately escape), where as a combo on low ping is almost entirely determined by how well the attacker can hold the combo(if played literally perfectly it could be held the entire match) but that isn't really possible for a human. Also, keep in mind that playing for health advantage through crit chains is already incentivized in a high ms fight, as you generally cannot nullify your disadvantage or regain advantage through a singular hit.
With that established, it is now possible to analyze the real effect that this has on pvp. In higher ms fights you will be forced to enter into extended trades and almost always have to use pots before or directly after generating any sort of advantage. This is completely opposite of lower ping, where advantage is generally determined within the first hits of every trade. (This may seem obvious, but is important to note). What this means is that in a higher ms fight, you will be spending the majority of time in a neutral state (trading hits), while for most of a lower ms fight you will be in advantage or disadvantage(a lot of times still trading hits, but one player is in advantage or disadvantage). This leads to a pretty significant difference, as the mechanics that are most important in one are not the same as what is most important in the other. For example, on low ms, mechanics such as hit selecting, spacing and jump resetting are incredibly important, while hit accuracy may be secondary as it is much easier to predict kb/movement. However, on high ms, hit accuracy is incredibly important, as missing a single hit will result in you immediately being put in a health disadvantage. This is combined with the fact that you are not in a position to easily escape a chain due to the nature of high ms, as well as it generally being more difficult to predict kb in a higher ms fight. Although I do want to say here, even though hit selecting has a much lower impact in higher ms fights and general mechanics are much more important, this does not necessarily mean that high ms has a lower skill ceiling. It may cause a lower skill floor (as in you need less skill to actually be good), but the same concepts for hit selecting still apply, it is just extremely more difficult to consistently accomplish (almost impossible to set up from a neutral position), as well as having a much smaller incentive than it would in a low ms fight (an argument could be made that this actually means the skill ceiling for high ms is technically higher, but that is a different discussion). However, this all is not entirely true in a low vs high ms fight. What this means is that the lower ms player, while already having to put an emphasis on different mechanics, is forced to play purely for health advantage. However, this restriction does not exist for the high ms player. While it is generally harder for them to play purely for health advantage because of their ping (slower potting, cannot win perfectly neutral crit trades, taking less kb every other hit in chains) they are rewarded for playing for advantage through hit selects, and it is this imbalance that the plugin aims to fix. This plugin effectively raises the skill ceiling for all players, as they are no longer forced to play purely for health advantage, but now also have the ability to hold combos on higher ms players (whether it is in a low ms vs high ms fight, or high ms vs high ms), as well as actually being incentivized to try and set up hit selects. Without it, this entire concept is practically lost in fights against high ms, as there is no reward for putting yourself in disadvantage in an attempt to accomplish a hit select.
Summary: Explained concept behind hit selecting. Not incentivized to try and hit select high ms players, plugin allows this by basically adding another layer to the game and taking away from the heavy focus on basic mechanics, effectively raising the skill ceiling and helping to balance the skill floor. Other benefits of this plugin have also been mentioned earlier in this thread, as well as some other mechanics that this relates to but are not necessary to go over, but I thought this topic was pretty important to bring up.
While I do want to isolate and analyze this aspect of the game alone, I do think it is worth stating some information that provides important context. This was stated earlier in the thread, but the players new velocity after a hit is calculated server side, and applied client side. For example, if two players with identical mirrored velocities run at each other, and both hit at 3 blocks (or any distance equal to each other), they will both experience kb at the exact same time regardless of either of the player's ping, the difference is in the actual kb they experience based on their velocity at the time the hit registered with server. Also, the higher the value of these players combined ping, the later that the kb will be applied (the players will be closer together). When I refer to momentum, it is generally their momentum towards you, not that generated by falling after taking kb, as well as a lot of times I should technically use the term speed instead of velocity but wtv.
When most people think of hit selecting, they either think of just waiting for the other person to hit before attacking in order to secure or a combo (or just the next hit) without the other player being able to hit back. Or, some people don't even know what it is. But I think it is better to more fully expand this concept to encompass all instances of players trading hits. In every trade, there is a theoretical optimal time to hit the opponent, which will generate you the greatest advantage possible. This advantage is most accurately described as the greatest difference between you and your opponents velocity towards each other, while also guaranteeing that the next opportunity to hit is yours. This can more generally be described as how much earlier you will reach the ground before your opponent after taking KB, while they are unable to hit you. In other words, you will be able to generate momentum towards the opponent higher than what is possible for them, as they will land on the ground later than you due to the fact that they took kb after you. The optimal time to hit in order to achieve this depends on 4 factors: your opponent's current distance from you, your opponent's current velocity, your current velocity, and their ping (if we are speaking relative to your perspective). While I explain these first 3 factors, assume or try to think of a scenario that is relatively normal, or not heavily effected by ping. I believe it is best to think of ping as a modifier to all of your decisions, which is best to go over last as it will only make it more difficult explaining everything else. Your opponent's current distance from you is arguably the most important factor in determining when to hit. While all of these other factors are dependent on one another, this factor determines whether you are playing in order to generate an advantage for yourself through momentum, or if it is better to play in relation to health advantage(exclude health advantage/crit trades for now, I will address that later). It is also the determining variable which all other factors are dependent on. For your opponent's current velocity, it is best to break this into both their current vertical and horizontal velocities, as they both play somewhat different parts. Assuming a vertical velocity greater or equal to 0, their horizontal velocity is used to determine what their velocity will be after you hit them. This can also be thought of as how much kb they will take. A lower horizontal velocity means they will move farther after you hit them, and a higher one means they will move less. However, the players vertical velocity plays into this in a different way. If your opponent has a negative vertical velocity, you will have to determine whether hitting them while they are falling or waiting for them to land will generate you the greatest advantage. If you are to hit them while they are falling, their new horizontal velocity (based on their previous horizontal velocity) will be applied for less time, as they will land and begin generating momentum again sooner. Opposite this, a positive vertical velocity (such as right after they jump) means their new horizontal velocity will be applied for a greater amount of time, as they will be in the air for a greater amount of time, not being able to begin generating momentum again until they reach the ground. Your own velocity is important similar to how your opponent's velocity is, it will determine where you will be after you hit, as well as how you will move after you are hit, whether you expect to take normal kb based on your velocity, or you jump reset to change this. While all of these are separate factors, they all play into the optimal time to hit, as when you account for each of these you are left with which hit timing results in the greatest advantage. While this is all true in a theoretical sense, it is generally not practical to try and achieve this optimal timing every hit. If this was the case, people would always be hitting at the last possible moment before them getting hit would make it impossible to generate an advantage. Most of the time people are hitting around 3 blocks, as this also forces the other player to hit around the same distance. Knowing that the other player is more likely to hit at max distance is generally what makes hit selects possible, as most of the time it is not possible for the player to react quick enough to hit select, or hit before the optimal time has passed, without knowing the distance the other player will hit at. Otherwise, both players would be hitting as close to this optimal time as possible, resulting in either an extremely minimal advantage being gained, or attempting to hit right before the other player decides the same, making this more of a coinflip and not a consistent approach. This is why people may find fights within the mid ranges of ms quite annoying, as the other player has much more time to react to a hit and hit select, while still not being within reach for the opponent's next hit. I think that this connects nicely to the fourth factor, and the reason this thread exists: Ping.
In relation to the other three factors, I think it is best to think of ping as simply an offset, while it does also possess other properties. (Assume your own ping as 0 or a constant factor). Regarding the distance the other player is away from you and their current velocity, you will have to use their ping to determine the location they will be at when kb is applied. For your own current velocity, if/when it changes due to the other player hitting you, you now must now know how much sooner you need to hit based on their ping in order to still generate an advantage. This is where playing against high ping initially gets a little more difficult. Sometimes, the other player's ping is high enough that the offset amount results in you no longer being able to generate an advantage, as it will take so long for the kb to be applied that the player will still be close enough to hit you. The result of this is, if you want to take the purely optimal approach to generate an advantage, this advantage will be so minimal it is hardly worth doing (exclude your health for now). You will technically have an advantage, but it will never result in you getting a hit without your opponent being able to hit back (unless your opponent continuously hits early). This is why, again in a more practical way of approaching this, if you want to generate an advantage it is generally best to start off by hitting at 3 blocks. Through doing this you force the other player to hit back relatively quickly, although in this case it is not about their reaction speed, but due to the fact that going for a late hit here will not generate an advantage as they will be too close to you allowing you to hit back. While hitting at this distance may put you at an immediate disadvantage, the disadvantage is relatively small. They will have a greater velocity towards you and be able to hit first, but it will not necessarily result in them gaining a greater advantage as you will still have the ability to hit back. Through putting yourself in disadvantage, you have also altered the circumstances from what they were originally, neither player has had the opportunity to generate much velocity towards each other yet, meaning that it is now possible to hit select the next hit. However, as the ping gets even higher, another property is introduced. The previous scenario was assuming it was still possible to combo the other player, as they would not have a negative velocity when it was best to go for your next hit. When this is not the case, the other players velocity will never not be negative in order to secure the next hit. In other words, if a player's ping is high enough, you will not be able to even set up a hit select through the method mentioned before, unless you started the trade when their vertical velocity was not equal to 0. More specifically, outside of rare scenarios, the first four factors will never be of values that produce an optimal time to hit, you will basically always be put in disadvantage. (Again in a theoretical sense, but it is hardly different in a practical one where it is only possible to generate advantage in rare instances and unique scenarios, which will be explained in this next section). With this said, against high ping players it is almost never optimal to play to generate advantage this way, which is why a different part of the game becomes much more central: Health advantage. Before this, I was speaking almost exclusively from the perspective of a neutral trade, as in both players are on equal health. Health advantage is basically you being on higher health than your opponent during a trade (or equal health with first hit), which can be better put as just forcing your opponent to have to pot before you do. This is so important due to the fact that you are free to do anything during this time, you can follow with a crit chain, quickly refill, or just pot yourself. But probably the most important aspect of this is the fact that the player, while having to turn to pot, effectively resets their velocity. They have to turn to pot, and then turn back again to try and generate momentum towards you, while you have been moving towards them this entire time. This difference in velocity gives you a large advantage, and it is here that you technically have the ability to set up a hit select. I say this because, generally, it is almost never worth playing for, as this advantage will be practically negated on the next trade, and it would have just been better to just continue playing for health advantage by critting.
This is where we get to the real difference of high ping. While it is possible to generate advantage in the way originally mentioned through crits, to also contribute to health advantage(all the same concepts still apply, just change your effect on the opponents velocity), the advantage gained is minimal, the only thing you gain is a singular extra hit whose main contribution is to health advantage anyways. This is also combined with the fact that on higher pings, in order to get this singular extra hit through advantage, you will typically have to perfectly execute a series of multiple hits in a trade, so that all of the four factors allow a crit to gain advantage. For the average person, it is not possible to intentionally set up a trade for a hit select in this way, and it is typically just recognized during the trade that a hit select like this is possible. Maybe players that have played on high ping for a long time can speak to this, I assume it gets easier the more you play, but I don't see a way where people could set this up from a neutral position at all, only recognize it during the trade or just instinctually know the best times to hit after having played on/against high ping for enough time. This is in stark contrast to the role that this concept plays in lower ping fights, where securing this hit leads to a combo where any number of pots could be drained based on how well the combo is held. I speak of these two so differently as while a crit chain burns pots more quickly, escaping from it is mostly based on how good you are at actually escaping it (although it is generally not possible to immediately escape), where as a combo on low ping is almost entirely determined by how well the attacker can hold the combo(if played literally perfectly it could be held the entire match) but that isn't really possible for a human. Also, keep in mind that playing for health advantage through crit chains is already incentivized in a high ms fight, as you generally cannot nullify your disadvantage or regain advantage through a singular hit.
With that established, it is now possible to analyze the real effect that this has on pvp. In higher ms fights you will be forced to enter into extended trades and almost always have to use pots before or directly after generating any sort of advantage. This is completely opposite of lower ping, where advantage is generally determined within the first hits of every trade. (This may seem obvious, but is important to note). What this means is that in a higher ms fight, you will be spending the majority of time in a neutral state (trading hits), while for most of a lower ms fight you will be in advantage or disadvantage(a lot of times still trading hits, but one player is in advantage or disadvantage). This leads to a pretty significant difference, as the mechanics that are most important in one are not the same as what is most important in the other. For example, on low ms, mechanics such as hit selecting, spacing and jump resetting are incredibly important, while hit accuracy may be secondary as it is much easier to predict kb/movement. However, on high ms, hit accuracy is incredibly important, as missing a single hit will result in you immediately being put in a health disadvantage. This is combined with the fact that you are not in a position to easily escape a chain due to the nature of high ms, as well as it generally being more difficult to predict kb in a higher ms fight. Although I do want to say here, even though hit selecting has a much lower impact in higher ms fights and general mechanics are much more important, this does not necessarily mean that high ms has a lower skill ceiling. It may cause a lower skill floor (as in you need less skill to actually be good), but the same concepts for hit selecting still apply, it is just extremely more difficult to consistently accomplish (almost impossible to set up from a neutral position), as well as having a much smaller incentive than it would in a low ms fight (an argument could be made that this actually means the skill ceiling for high ms is technically higher, but that is a different discussion). However, this all is not entirely true in a low vs high ms fight. What this means is that the lower ms player, while already having to put an emphasis on different mechanics, is forced to play purely for health advantage. However, this restriction does not exist for the high ms player. While it is generally harder for them to play purely for health advantage because of their ping (slower potting, cannot win perfectly neutral crit trades, taking less kb every other hit in chains) they are rewarded for playing for advantage through hit selects, and it is this imbalance that the plugin aims to fix. This plugin effectively raises the skill ceiling for all players, as they are no longer forced to play purely for health advantage, but now also have the ability to hold combos on higher ms players (whether it is in a low ms vs high ms fight, or high ms vs high ms), as well as actually being incentivized to try and set up hit selects. Without it, this entire concept is practically lost in fights against high ms, as there is no reward for putting yourself in disadvantage in an attempt to accomplish a hit select.
Summary: Explained concept behind hit selecting. Not incentivized to try and hit select high ms players, plugin allows this by basically adding another layer to the game and taking away from the heavy focus on basic mechanics, effectively raising the skill ceiling and helping to balance the skill floor. Other benefits of this plugin have also been mentioned earlier in this thread, as well as some other mechanics that this relates to but are not necessary to go over, but I thought this topic was pretty important to bring up.
