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Suggestion Ping Floor
- Thread starter SirMaltier
- Start date
In these micro interactions between high level players, any mistake does cause death, or disadvantage. If we could have the server set to 50 ms and we test it I think that could show the difference, even if only for a bit. We might see more Skuhoo deaths, more Archersquid deaths, and more pingy players being able to take more advantages.
That's not the issue xD It's how it impacts PvP to the degree at which it does.
Without potions ping isn't as important imo. If someone has 1ms and someone has 80ms, every hit still does a lot of damage. It's much easier to die in both circumstances because it's essentially more towards who gets the first hit or combo and can keep it up which relates back to skill, not ping.
Well there also weren't swing cooldowns so a large portion of it was just clicking as fast as you can.
I could be wrong about this considering my relative inexperience with conquest, but aren't 1v1s uncommon for the majority of a battle? It might boil down to them in an even fight when numbers dwindle, but otherwise teams tend to stick together and outnumber their opponents. It's in these team fight scenarios that ping really doesn't matter all that much. There are far more impactful things such as server tps, fps, the overall skill of each side, the environment, and coordination/leadership.
If it's something everyone is really passionate about then it couldn't hurt to test it, but it seems silly to me.
I could be wrong about this considering my relative inexperience with conquest, but aren't 1v1s uncommon for the majority of a battle? It might boil down to them in an even fight when numbers dwindle, but otherwise teams tend to stick together and outnumber their opponents. It's in these team fight scenarios that ping really doesn't matter all that much. There are far more impactful things such as server tps, fps, the overall skill of each side, the environment, and coordination/leadership.
If it's something everyone is really passionate about then it couldn't hurt to test it, but it seems silly to me.
Ping does change the outcome of team fights since, like I said before, allows for more leeway. It's easier to escape and easier to focus on a single target. I can definitely see where you're coming from with 1.7.10/1.8.9 PvP ping and I do agree that it also holds a strong regard to ping impacting PvP, but it's still present in 1.9+ PvP.
I did some tests recently by emulating the effect of higher ping and dueling ArcherSquid multiple times with it and he was still able to get an overall high advantage than when I switched back to 50ms. of course emulating a different ping isn't going to be super accurate but it definitely made a difference.
I'd say they are and aren't. It depends on terrain, and it depends on how long the fight has been happening. After a lot of people spawn in, people push and those situations no ping doesn't really matter as sometimes you just click and hope it's an enemy. However in other scenarios 1v1s become very common, if brief, making someone pot twice for your passive heal regen just because your ping was better and you won the crit battle isn't exactly fair.
Also I cri at your description of 1.8
Also I cri at your description of 1.8
I already die enough malt ;-;
I want to see your head on every window in Eldritch.
Right here, Right now let me establish this is Not a ban on people with high ping. Whats being proposed is that the top 1% of PVP'ers can face issues on combat based on ping that are meaningless to people in a lower skill bracket. The notion behind this is Not "Lets kill Sku's ping!" What's being proposed is that at the top 1% we try to limit some of the advantage of being close to the server. In spirit people don't want to see others have an advantage just because they happen to live by the server. The spirit behind this notion is to remove some of the luck in high skill bracket PVP. Because not everyone gets to live close to the server and have great ping. Its not always a choice to have bad ping.
this post was made by pac in loka discord, just to clear any confusion
this post was made by pac in loka discord, just to clear any confusion
Jokes aside there is definitely merit to the argument for sure. That said, I have yet to see a way suggested to create a ping floor though. Would be interested to see what that would look like. Is it possible? What does it do to the people that it would be applied to? Can you target specific pings of people without effecting (affecting?) (help me teepot) regular players with already high ping? Thanks for the discussion malt!
the way to do it is sending packets to players, and it artificially raises their ping, only the low ping players would be effected by this, and raised to whatever level is wanted. Nobody with high ping would be effected from it. (Unless they rely on someone with low ping to carry for them, and all the sudden they can no longer win fights because of it)
My issue with this idea is that it is not something that directly improves the server. We have to remember that Loka is not anyone's "real job" and that it takes (Crypt's) time and money to develop stuff for the server. Given that he has a limited amount of time to develop for Loka, there should be a focus on things that improve the player experience, for existing players, and new ones. Artificially raising ping has absolutely no benefits for Loka's growth. New players won't want to stick around if they can just hop on some faction server and get the really low ping that they're used to.
Additionally, as I mentioned, this is not a direct improvement in gameplay or mechanics for anyone. It is attempting to actually worsen the experience for some players, for the indirect "benefit" of those who it is already worse for. Given Loka's international community, an east coast server provides the lowest average ping across all players. Unfortunately, we can't change geography, so ultimately, some people will have to get the short end of the stick here. Also, it is unfair to effectively throttle people's connections just because they live in the east/northeast US and/or have good internet speed. All of this is especially frivolous because ping is not really a major factor in PvP. By the point that high ping has significant effect on one player, their opponent having a ping of ~50 instead of ~15 is basically meaningless. People play plenty of games like CS:GO, LoL, PUBG, etc., and are all on a nearly level playing field with almost any ping <100. Beyond that, ping is far from one of the significant factors in Minecraft PvP. Individual skill, awareness, and FPS far outweigh any and all other factors combined, especially in 1.9+ pot PvP and subsequently, conquest. Anyone who thinks people like Sku and Archer have a truly significant advantage in fights that would be lost if there was a "ping floor" does not understand the way that PvP really works.
I understand that some of you have a regular ping that is over 100, or higher, and it sucks, I get it, but there is not a reasonable point at which people's ping can be increased to affect balance, without making the game objectively worse for people. Really that's what it all boils down to here. Yeah, it'd be great if people didn't have to deal with lousy ping, but making everyone else's ping worse to compensate is more spite than solution, and doesn't serve to benefit anyone in the long run, and is thus not worth the time and effort that would have to go into developing it.
P.S. This doesn't even take into account the plausibility of development/implementation of such a feature, which is whole other issue
Additionally, as I mentioned, this is not a direct improvement in gameplay or mechanics for anyone. It is attempting to actually worsen the experience for some players, for the indirect "benefit" of those who it is already worse for. Given Loka's international community, an east coast server provides the lowest average ping across all players. Unfortunately, we can't change geography, so ultimately, some people will have to get the short end of the stick here. Also, it is unfair to effectively throttle people's connections just because they live in the east/northeast US and/or have good internet speed. All of this is especially frivolous because ping is not really a major factor in PvP. By the point that high ping has significant effect on one player, their opponent having a ping of ~50 instead of ~15 is basically meaningless. People play plenty of games like CS:GO, LoL, PUBG, etc., and are all on a nearly level playing field with almost any ping <100. Beyond that, ping is far from one of the significant factors in Minecraft PvP. Individual skill, awareness, and FPS far outweigh any and all other factors combined, especially in 1.9+ pot PvP and subsequently, conquest. Anyone who thinks people like Sku and Archer have a truly significant advantage in fights that would be lost if there was a "ping floor" does not understand the way that PvP really works.
I understand that some of you have a regular ping that is over 100, or higher, and it sucks, I get it, but there is not a reasonable point at which people's ping can be increased to affect balance, without making the game objectively worse for people. Really that's what it all boils down to here. Yeah, it'd be great if people didn't have to deal with lousy ping, but making everyone else's ping worse to compensate is more spite than solution, and doesn't serve to benefit anyone in the long run, and is thus not worth the time and effort that would have to go into developing it.
P.S. This doesn't even take into account the plausibility of development/implementation of such a feature, which is whole other issue
I believe it would work on all players that have good ping, no targeting would be done.
New players will either like conquest, or they won't. Or some aspect of the server anyway. Personally, being who I am and constantly looking for other servers (no offense loka is good, spent 55 on it to prove it ;p), I know what people look for in servers, and ping isn't too big a factor, same can go for the 33% damage increase argument, where people can say it does effect players wanting to stick around. People still do, even though personally I'm against it, it's far too engraved to do anything.
Also I ask, is it fair they get benefits just because they're close?
And the fact that you say ping has no factor is just plain wrong, and I don't blame you as I'm sure you're not as experienced on as many servers. I can personally testify to ping being a definite factor in PvP, in any game in fact. League of Legends for example as soon as I get better ping I ranked up, Loka DESPITE the 300 less fps I'm doing well in most conquest fights because of the ping I'm getting (39 from 46, thats a 7 ms difference). Now this post was made for the assumption that ping is a factor in PvP, and I'm forced to now believe since your biggest part of your argument is that ping is not a factor, that you did not actually read the original thread.
Several of the people who have advocated for this are low ping players, I believe para gets like 23, I get 39, etc. (this part is edited, I'd like to note, low compared to the ping threshold I'm suggesting)
As for the implementation of it, https://gyazo.com/f0f88c31c6fc22f62ca51727434ee24b
This thread is more towards if it is something that is worth the time investing in, I'd ask you to re-do your argument just simply under the assumption that if it does make a difference what should we do.
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Calixx makes several good points as to why this shouldn't be considered. From a different standpoint though, it is interesting that the two undisputed 'best' pvpers on the server are Archer and Sku (both people that have less than 10 ping). While Malt has done a good job of reinforcing the fact that good ping doesn't make good players, it does seem to have a massive factor at the higher levels of play. The only way I can relate to this is to throw it back to my Halo 2 days. The multiplayer setup for Halo 2 was the simply great, but in each game one player would essentially be the 'host' of that game. The highest level to be achieved in this game was 50 which was only achievable by people that modded or hacked the game. I was pretty much as close as you could be at level 45 in team slayer and doubles. Every game that I had host I could notice it within moments of being in the game. My shots were faster, my movement was cleaner, even my damage seemed to be higher with certain weapons (rockets and nades were op). The 'host' didn't always have a great effect on the game, like when my subpar friends got it and couldn't do much with it. When I had it however I could consistently go 25-30 kills with 2-5 deaths in a game. All that to say me having great ping in a game didn't make me a great player but when my ping was the best in the game it was simply unfair to other players because of my skill. If this change is something that is possible and easy to implement I see no problem with at least testing it out and leveling the playing field as much as possible. The argument that Calixx makes that it lowers the playing experience for other players is not that valid as it wouldn't be crippling the lower ping players, as in it would not in any way make it 'unplayable' for them. They would simply have to deal with a (still low) 50 ping which would be the base for all players making the experience more fair for everyone, eliminating the 'host' effect. The reason I asked my previous questions about the ease of implementation with something like this is because I think that is the bigger issue. Crypt cannot be expected to check every single player that logs into lokas ping and make adjustments accordingly. That is just a waste of time and shouldn't be his focus in the development of loka, like Calixx previously stated. I see very little arguments to be made for us not giving it a shot if it is simple and possible.
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Let me just be clear here, you're saying that you can notice and it has made a difference in your skill having a difference in latency of .007 seconds? Sorry but I'm going to have to call bullshit there, I doubt anyone in any game would tell you honestly that they can tell a difference equal to about 7/1000ths of a second.
In a time span where you can die within 2 seconds, these small fractions of seconds do matter, part of being a more veteran PvPer is having good pot timing, refining your hand movements to not shake, good aim all that stuff. ANY BENEFIT AT ALL helps to improve gameplay. It's at a point where I will rather play with the .007 second difference than with my super computer at home, and if you want I can get quotes from professorial league players citing ping being a difference in play. (I was gonna go get it, but I don't recall the exact clip. Bjerson said something about it in one of his youtube videos, and for anyone who doesn't know Bjerson is currently known as the best player from League of Legends in North America, a rather credible source of skill).