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A Fresh Start

X_Cavator

X_Cavator

Active Member
Slicer
Hey guys, as you all have seen, Loka has a relatively low player count. Loka is a server that has a balance of survival, pvp, and roleplay. Loka is supposed to be a unique blend of all these elements into a way that players typically have not seen before. Now, the survival part is pretty well done on Loka, the town system is good but that is not hard to achieve. As for roleplay, this server does have a decent amount but compared to another server I've frequently been playing, events and such can also be added for more fun. Now we get to PvP, the main Loka problem. The battlegrounds are very well done, especially gulch. Vota and gulch are extremely fun and give players tons of entertainment. However the arenas are absolute garbage. The hit detection is awful and it just feels so different from any other PvP arena I play. The main Loka problem is the world PvP. Right now east and nico have 8 dubs of prot 4 armor and a stack of god apples. Right now, this is reached an unbeatable level. If you bring over a group of pvpers, all better than both of them, they'd still lose as to how stacked dragonstone is right now. The only solution to this is a map reset. This map has been around since I joined back roughly a year ago. Most servers reset maps long before then and I think Loka is due for one. As we did for porpoise, we can get some youtubers to create server trailers for the incoming map reset and advertise it as a pvp/rp/smp server.(since none of you like the hcf idea :P) This would create a fresh start for pvp groups to fight against argus and it would create an actual player base where people wouldn't quit after seeing how stacked dragonstone is. You can consider this idea, or you can dismiss me as an inactive troll, either way this is my opinion on how Loka can grow.
 
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So you want a world reset just for pvp; better yet, Argus? IMO I feel that when Argus isn't OP anymore, you will no longer be inactive.
 
We have had our current world for a long time... A map reset wouldn't be out of the question, I guess, and it would give us an excuse to move RP forward.
 
We're in agreement that the current state of Argus2stronk is a big problem; especially for anyone who wants to try to come in and change that. Not only are they incredibly well stocked and have the top PvPers, but our raiding is so gimped that you couldn't damage or steal from their stores if you wanted to. A new world is something we've talked about, but what we want to do with the new world is a huge undertaking and very ambitious. Unfortunately, a couple of the people involved with it have been struck in the face with IRL (hence why the admin team has been kinda out of it for awhile).

The lack of 'fair' World PvP is but one of many reasons for our lack of growth (in my view anyway). I think one o the biggest issues is that we don't know how to brand ourself. These days, everybody knows what kind of Minecraft server they want to play. You either want to play on Minigames, Factions, Prison, Survival, Vanilla, Creative Building, Modded, RP, etc. Most people aren't looking for an everything server. There are extremely few servers like Loka out there that do a little bit of all of that. So when somebody comes to Loka, they're not really sure WHAT to do. Couple that with the fact that most of Loka's best, custom content is really end-game (Towns, Territories, etc), new players join and have a real hard time coming to grips with wtf they're even doing on the server. Further, all new members join into a hub that's empty and go find the survival bit that has the people on it. Some don't even make it to survival because the hub is empty so why bother.

We have the minigames for people, but not the sustained population where new players could join and actually participate in any of them. Right now they have to beg for one to even start. This is obviously simply a numbers problem, because the demand is out there.

We have Territories, but nobody but Argus can win (even though Argus is the weakest it's ever been at this very moment). Further, they're a steep learning curve and a steep gearing curve. The action for Territories (probably our biggest and could-be-best feature) can't be gotten to by anybody who's new.

Our story is decent, could be better. We actually have the beginnings of a PvE team starting up and we might start to see some real PvE, Questing, Mobs, etc content coming soon, but that appeals to a minority of the Lokan Population or, at least, it's not something I think would really

Our battlegrounds are, I think, the best in all of Minecraft, honestly. But we have no good way of showing them off to lots of people because they're not running often enough.

Finally, lots of things can happen on Loka, and like many servers, it's always more fun with more people and fresh people. We have a real marketing problem and we're currently trying to do a stint of tracking down YouTubers and Twitch streamers to get them to play on loka and record it. This, however, is going poorly. I've very nearly announced a campaign to literally put a bounty on YT/Streamers. Something along the lines of you bring a Streamer/YT'er to the server with min X viewers, I will pay you $20 or something. I think a sustained spree of new players could get the word out about Loka enough that at some point, YouTubers and Twitchers would stream organically because, hey, what they're doing on Loka can't be done anywhere else in Minecraft. We just gotta GET those people here.

As the server owner/developer, I hear a lot of people's suggestions; and they're all great. The issue is they're all completely different and selfish (which is fine). Because Loka is so many things, everybody wants it to be better in many different ways. And I'm not sure any of us really knows if there is ONE thing we should just absolutely focus on. You'll notice this changes frequently; usually to whatever interests me in the moment. VotA's start to happen frequently, I start to do PvP work. Territory wars happen for a good month; I focus on that.

Loka lacks solid vision. And that's something the admin team has needed to have an honest meeting about recently. Unfortunately, some of our admins are gone from Loka for a little bit taking care of some IRL, and that's stopping us from moving. This is also why you've seen a halt on major feature development on Loka. In the meantime, I've been tackling little bugs here and there, finishing some features that have been incomplete for a long long time (Town chests, etc). We need our admin team back in action and then we can really sit down and decide where Loka is going.

The best thing that we could have happen to Loka right now, though, is a big surge of new players. If you'll remember, GamingOnCaffeine brought Loka nearly to capacity (~110/120 players for a couple hours). As for why we only retained, like, 4 players out of that; he streamed his adventure all the way up to making a town and then stopped and never returned. He made the town but never invited ANYBODY to the town. He didn't do any of our PvP features either. Virtually all 100 of those players basically followed him on what looked like just a survival server and virtually none of them whatsoever got to experience anything about Loka that's what makes Loka tick. It was, unfortunately, a total miss.

If we could get just a few more YT/Twitchers on here and get them to really engage in our content, I think we could get the numbers we all agree Loka deserves. We could bring PvPers and just show them our Battlegrounds. We could bring in Factions YouTubers and show them Territories. We could bring in Adventure YTers and show them our custom recipes and stuff (though a bit lacking currently). These could each bring in huge populations interested in those things and then the cross-breeding between those groups could really create some great new power balances on Loka. Unfortunately, we don't have any of that happening right now. So, in the meantime, we're really struggling with what Loka needs. Everybody thinks we need something, but there is no major consensus on what and that's hurting bad.

Loka is the best, and we all know it. But it's just shy of greatness on a lot of different levels and we need help. Loka is something every Minecrafter should experience, but we're having a hell of a time getting our name out.
 
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There was also the big Argus offensive and some corresponding raiding that seems to have discouraged some from playing. I know that raiding is a noted feature (I saw it when I first learned about Loka), but when people get all of their good stuff taken, they leave (well, not everybody reacts that way, but . . .).

I do like the concept of the Ruin, and I wonder if that could be expanded in the game, maybe in a way that could take the place of raiding. I just had a bunch of ideas of some capture-the-flag-like element, but I need to think it through more.

Argus is mindful of the negative effect of the imbalance mentioned here, and something is in the works to address it. Check with East or Nico about it. I would not, however, attribute Argus's success to god apples and p4 armor (for one thing, the opposition many times had the armor and god apples). Nope. There was hard work, dedication, coordination, strategy, and intelligence in the defense of Argus and in the offensive that I took part in (and I am no great PvP player--got killed a number of times). That does bring up an issue--the Argus leadership had experience and knowledge about t-gen warfare that was a big advantage. It has taken me a long time to grasp it. Perhaps we could have emissaries who train leaders of new towns in the nuances of t-gen warfare.

Also, I wonder if there could be a practice facility for t-gen warfare. Gulch has some of those elements, but it is rare to see a game going (and I did not have good experiences playing that game the first few times, due to my lack of knowledge about the game).

After reading your post, Cryptite, about IRL stuff slowing things down a bit, I went and added more suggestions. I like Loka (after having played on some other great servers, Loka suits me the best). You have done an exceptional job here (I am in awe, really). And X_Cavator, I would like to see you back playing more--even though you will clobber me in PvP.
 
Humility? Politeness? Spelling? And you say Loka suits you? o_O

I'm kidding of course. But with regards to what you said about teaching people about territories, where Argus's success is concerned it really just boils down to time and effort. And while many people truly love Loka, I think I'm one of the most qualified people alive who can speak on the subject of it being very exhausting in large doses.
 
I think that Loka has a ton to offer. It's slick, it's innovative, and it's definitely not just another cookie-cutter server. However, like anything new, it has some problems that are just going to have to be ironed out as they're encountered.

I don't think that a world restart will completely solve the problem. Yes, things will get set back to zero, everyone will have a fair chance again, but I don't think that it really stops what is currently happening with Argus from happening again. Someone, perhaps even the same people, will rise to the top again and be able to be so strong that no one else will be able to fight them. What that tells me is that it's not so much a problem with Argus as it is a problem with the balance of the system. If anything, wiping the map will destroy much needed infrastructure that makes this server interesting in the territory control portion of the game. It shouldn't be a problem that we have big towns, those towns should make things better and more exciting. No, instead it means that the balance of the game is not quite right yet.

The specific mechanics of the system can be discussed any number of different, interesting, and exciting ways, but I think what Crypt said about the server lacking vision is far more pertinent. It's not a problem with the specific mechanics, it's a problem with the overall philosophy, theme, and goal of the server. So let's talk philosophy. Currently, it seems like the server wants to have an exciting and dynamic world PvP system, interesting minigames, PvE events and locales, and RPG elements for those that care to partake. That's a hell of a mix. But, since the PvP aspect is what is currently being discussed, I'll focus on that. The biggest problem is that with so few people, some are inevitably going to rise to the top, either because they spend more time online or because they're simply better at the game. How do we make such people vulnerable without completely making their skill irrelevant? How do we allow smaller towns to compete with bigger towns, while giving both an incentive to grow? It should not be Argus' responsibility to nerf itself, or create welfare programs for smaller towns. Everyone should have an incentive to grow, but those at the top should not be completely invulnerable.

Currently the only way to interact with another town, base-raiding, is nerfed to all hell. Anyone who cares to build underground, or to build a giant dome around their town, is safe from everything. They're safe from theft, they're safe from attack, and there's nothing anyone can do about that. This means that the largest towns can effectively turtle, and prevent anyone from catching up with them because no one can hit them where it really hurts; their vault. This invulnerability, at every level, not just the highest, is probably the largest cause of stagnation on the server. Since nothing can be done to a town without its consent, nothing will ever change that town's growth (for better or for worse) unless they wish it to. People need to have the opportunity to win big, yes, but they also need to have the opportunity to lose big too.

Sorry this is such a long post. I have a lot more to add, but I think this is a good place to stop for now.
 
A long time ago, in a city far, far away...
I was laughed at for thinking putting sand in front of my door would keep me safe from raiders. Little did anyone know, I predicted the future.

Loka is absolutely the greatest server in existence. My favourite thing about it is the community. I briefly played on two other servers before I found Loka; the owners never listened to the players, the admins were unfair, the players kept to themselves and rarely even said "welcome" to new players. No no, Crypt is probably the best server owner in Minecraft history, our admins are awesome, just every single player makes Loka what it is, and it changes with the loss or gain of every player. That's another great thing about Loka, it's always changing, there's so much new stuff. Alliances, territories, town levelling. New worlds, new events, new RP problems, it's awesome!

So my question is, is there anything us players can do to help perfectify the server to prepare for new players? Build farms near spawn? Update the wiki? Zero in on promising new players and invite them to our towns, teach them about server features? Anything?
 
Tygah said:
Currently the only way to interact with another town, base-raiding
Click to expand...

This statement confuses me. How is this the only way to interact with another town? You're saying it hardly ever happens anymore, yet towns interact all the time through other means. Furthermore, we've seen countless times in the past that the sort of "interaction" between towns that results from raiding has been completely toxic and off-putting to new players.

Tygah said:
Anyone who cares to build underground, or to build a giant dome around their town, is safe from everything. They're safe from theft, they're safe from attack, and there's nothing anyone can do about that. This means that the largest towns can effectively turtle, and prevent anyone from catching up with them because no one can hit them where it really hurts; their vault. This invulnerability, at every level, not just the highest, is probably the largest cause of stagnation on the server. Since nothing can be done to a town without its consent, nothing will ever change that town's growth (for better or for worse) unless they wish it to. People need to have the opportunity to win big, yes, but they also need to have the opportunity to lose big too.
Click to expand...

There are a number of holes in this idea that increased town security has caused the server to stagnate. Firstly, many of the server's most secure towns are outside of Argus, and several Argus towns still have glaring security problems. Secondly, there hasn't been on a time on Loka when raiders could access an obsidian-encased fault since when bug abuse was still allowed. Since you specifically mentioned that people being unable to break into vaults was an issue, are you really suggesting that we go back to allowing bug abuse? Because that would, in effect, render all defences of any kind obsolete and make keeping your town's location secret the only real method of defence, just like the old days. Now tell me, do you think that a server where everyone is keeping their town's locations secret, scared shitless of being found and having a dozen raiders boat-glitch through the solid ground into their vault, would somehow make the server more social? More fun? Less "stagnant"?

Any veteran with a decent memory recalls the sheer number of beautiful, productive, lively towns that were made on this server before the rules on bug abuse were put into place who were essentially forced to leave, on account of a team of dedicated bug-abusing raiders taking every single item out of every chest in their town every time they logged off. I mentioned this is a previous thread, but Loka is exhausting in large doses, and almost no one has the endurance or desire to rebuilt and relocate their entire setup on account of a few dickheads trolling them religiously.

Loka has seen huge spikes in activity since bug abuse was banned, it's only relatively recently that we've seen a drop off in activity, for many of the reasons outlined above: Argus is extremely entrenched and experienced, and no new joins want to bother with putting in the massive amounts of time and energy necessary to topple them. Powering up raiding so the few active players we now have are suddenly screwed out of all of the items they've been working to accumulate this whole time seems like the wrong move, somehow.
 
Artagan said:
This statement confuses me. How is this the only way to interact with another town? You're saying it hardly ever happens anymore, yet towns interact all the time through other means. Furthermore, we've seen countless times in the past that the sort of "interaction" between towns that results from raiding has been completely toxic and off-putting to new players.
Click to expand...

I apologize. I don't mean to say that raiding is the only interaction, period, because clearly there is trading between individuals, there are alliances, and there are attacks on tgens and the like. I mean it is the only mechanical gameplay interaction that has any negative effect on the growth of a town, and I think that that in itself is limiting. I would love for there to be more mechanic-based reasons to invite people to your towns, to visit other peoples' towns, to trade en masse, and to steal. It could give greater benefits to towns that trade with each other rather than just holding onto their resources. If a town (or alliance) was too powerful, then excluding it from such trading groups could be detrimental to its growth.

I don't think that closing loopholes and glitches has lead to server stagnation at all, and I'm definitely not advocating a return to bug abuse. Getting rid of bugs is extremely necessary, especially since they could be abused to the point to render ANY defense obsolete. I'm completely with you regarding the idea that being forced to hide your base from everyone else would be a horrible thing. But I do believe that absolute safety is just as bad as absolute vulnerability. I don't have any specific mechanics in mind, but I think it's necessary to have some sort of mechanically allowed base-raiding/loot-stealing system as well as effective mechanical defenses. Neither can or should be perfect, and would theoretically allow players some degree of security while also giving raiders/thieves some chance at success. The balancing act would be hard, yes, but it's already out of wack if no one thinks it's worth the effort to try and topple Argus. Again, as I posted previously, how do we make smaller towns more competitive while also not completely dismantling the achievements of those who have invested more time/effort/skill into the game?
 
I think towns shouldn't place all their focus on fighting Argus. Argus has vasts amounts of gear and pots, skilled pvp players, and a well organized alliance. If we want to get world pvp up and running, towns should form smaller alliances and fight among each other whether it be for practice, competition, role play, or just for fun. While this doesn't offer the opportunity to become Capital, it does allow for more tgen fights, more experience for new players, and can be a stepping stone for alliance to become skillful enough to engage Argus in combat.
 
As far as I know, Argus did not rely on god apples in most battles over the last few months, and those who attacked Argus seemed to have a good number of god apples and a good amount of P4 gear. Still, the players who mattered most for Argus did have plenty of gear. Again, Argus has been working on a plan to address this. Check with East or Niko.

I don't like a re-set right now for selfish reasons, as I am involved in some vast building projects. But I know others are also similarly invested. But if it happens, I would start something new.

Not dropping gear when dying and the ancient ingots were cool ideas to alleviate some of the cost of battle. It might be beneficial to have some incentive for towns to attack the territory of towns other than Argus. Maybe add in some sort of reward for taking down a t-gen (armor? One piece? Two?). Or have a number of temporary perks, like that of the Ruin, that towns can get by successfully taking another town's t-gen (perhaps also award that temporary perk to towns that successfully defend). I don't have a good idea of what other perks could be applied. We could have that perk last for four hours or more from the time of taking down a t-gen. This way, new towns wouldn't have to challenge Argus (or any ruling alliance) right off in order to gain t-gen battle experience, and they could experience, temporarily, some of the perks that higher level towns have.

One notable imbalance stems from access to 1.7 villagers. I don't have a 1.7 blacksmith, and I burned through a lot of diamonds for boots, leggings and helmets in the defense of t-gens (it was a lot of work and hassle). Maybe this needs to be addressed (the advantage that those with 1.7 blacksmiths have)?
 
I clicked the Forums button from this thread twice just to see a new reply was just posted. Twice xD
 
So chuck you want us to fight for a meaningless position, losing gear for zero reason other than learning how to destroy small towns that should all be banding together to actually try and fight argus?
 
No, that's stupid. I'm saying tgen fights can be more than just a tool to become capital. The whole point of territories is to create a mechanic to expand world pvp. While defeating Argus may be the endgame at the moment, it is going to be a good bit for towns to organize, train, and become committed enough to take on that task. It's true that small alliance/town fight may not advance anyone to capital, but at least players can have fun than let all their collect dust in a vault.
 
so you want to have small towns destroy eachother early on for fun? last time i checked most mc players are easily irritated and get pissed when they get raided or attacked. look at dragonstei for example. they get hit once and we lose ivette, the anti argus alliance collapses, and many others quit. it just seems silly for small towns to fight while argus controls the server like a puppet master
 
I did suggest incentives for inter-town wars.

I would like to clarify something: while I think the ancient ingots and no-loss of dropped gear on death in t-gen fights were good, considering the imbalance of skill, know-how, dedication and coordination, ideally they would not be necessary--say if we had a lot more invested players who developed skills and were willing to build towns and gain industries in order to fuel warfare. Territory wars should be costly (that's what war is like IRL); otherwise, how would it be different from Gulch and Vota and PvP fighting on other servers? The more I think about it--the more I realize the difficult task that Cryptite and any who have helped him design Loka have.
 
To be clear, the "puppet master" idea and other anti-Argus rhetoric I have heard (from Agorednocit, for example)--that's role play, right? If not, what did Argus do to you to earn those characterizations?
 
Gear drop would have led to me quitting long ago. the war was pointless but while there were no consequences, it was fun to try and stir up the bee's nest. The pvp aspect would totally die if i had to lose my sword/bow every time i died at a tgen (countless times) and as for me clearly the dedication was there, but the problem was i was just never able to find other players motivated to the cause. they all quit on more or really didnt give a shit. only way to fix this is new players and that seems to not be working
 
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