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[Defgnww]

Also, how will you deal with cases in which a member of the town is tricked into letting a raider inside the town or a restricted area of the town?

An example would be Jedi being tricked into letting a group into Der Riese which ended very poorly for its citizens.

I'm not sure on this example, I guess I wasn't around for it. But you're saying people got permissions for the town and stole, right? Isn't that what Crypt is saying, people can't do that now or they'd be banned/punished?

 

[Zor95]

Also, how will you deal with cases in which a member of the town is tricked into letting a raider inside the town or a restricted area of the town?

An example would be Jedi being tricked into letting a group into Der Riese which ended very poorly for its citizens.

I'm not sure on this example, I guess I wasn't around for it. But you're saying people got permissions for the town and stole, right? Isn't that what Crypt is saying, people can't do that now or they'd be banned/punished?

Jedi was told that Der Riese was being raided and she was offered help from a certain player or two. These people did not have permission in the city so Jedi had to let them in via nether. As Jedi let them in, another group of players using invisibility potions also entered the city and havoc ensued. From what I understand, everyone including those who offered help were involved in this plot.

EDIT: Last couple posts edited a couple times with additional text.

 

[Defgnww]

Also, how will you deal with cases in which a member of the town is tricked into letting a raider inside the town or a restricted area of the town?

An example would be Jedi being tricked into letting a group into Der Riese which ended very poorly for its citizens.

I'm not sure on this example, I guess I wasn't around for it. But you're saying people got permissions for the town and stole, right? Isn't that what Crypt is saying, people can't do that now or they'd be banned/punished?

Jedi was told that Der Riese was being raided and she was offered help from a certain player or two. These people did not have permission in the city so Jedi had to let them in via nether. As Jedi let them in, another group of players using invisibility potions also entered the city and havoc ensued. From what I understand, everyone including those who offered help were involved in this plot.

Seems like a tricky subject then. I would guess any situation where someone is tricked into letting people into a town would be "illegal" but I don't know. Crypt?

 

[Zor95]

The reason I ask is because if people are held responsible for this trickery, due to the difficulty of differentiating between innocence and sabotage, then people would be just as reluctant as before to allow people to enter their town. Even more so perhaps because now the danger is present just in allowing someone to enter your town rather than consciously giving them perms. And the punishment is no longer death and a few items, but a ban from the server.

 

[Defgnww]

The reason I ask is because if people are held responsible for this trickery, due to the difficulty of differentiating between innocence and sabotage, then people would be just as reluctant as before to allow people to enter their town. Even more so perhaps because now the danger is present just in allowing someone to enter your town rather than consciously giving them perms. And the punishment is no longer death and a few items, but a ban from the server.

I would think that if someone was tricked into letting people into a town and they managed to sabotage it that the people who did the tricking would be punished. It's not really the person's fault for letting them into the town.

 

[Jedoi]

Also, how will you deal with cases in which a member of the town is tricked into letting a raider inside the town or a restricted area of the town?

An example would be Jedi being tricked into letting a group into Der Riese which ended very poorly for its citizens.

I'm not sure on this example, I guess I wasn't around for it. But you're saying people got permissions for the town and stole, right? Isn't that what Crypt is saying, people can't do that now or they'd be banned/punished?

Jedi was told that Der Riese was being raided and she was offered help from a certain player or two. These people did not have permission in the city so Jedi had to let them in via nether. As Jedi let them in, another group of players using invisibility potions also entered the city and havoc ensued. From what I understand, everyone including those who offered help were involved in this plot.

EDIT: Last couple posts edited a couple times with additional text.

Actually, um, Zor, I only "helped" Psy, and, well, he was already in town. I at first didn't believe Psy about Der Riese being raided, but when hip killed Lea I went to help. Psy and Lea were both already in town, but I sorta opened doorways to where Psy wanted to go because he "knew where hip was" and he said that this cannon will "hurt hip but not the blocks" and when it blew up he "had no idea that would happen" and when he was in the vault "darn, hip had already taken the items". so, yeah.

 

[Defgnww]

Actually, um, Zor, I only "helped" Psy, and, well, he was already in town. I at first didn't believe Psy about Der Riese being raided, but when hip killed Lea I went to help. Psy and Lea were both already in town, but I sorta opened doorways to where Psy wanted to go because he "knew where hip was" and he said that this cannon will "hurt hip but not the blocks" and when it blew up he "had no idea that would happen" and when he was in the vault "darn, hip had already taken the items". so, yeah.

He just used the situation as an example of someone being tricked, I don't think we're trying to decipher exactly what happened in the situation. Even if the scenario isn't accurate to what happened it's still a good example to consider.

 

[Cryptite]

What you're going to see now are raiders jumping walls or simply walking into towns and massacring everyone. It will be made easier by false sense of security that will now pervade the server. This is far more detrimental to town life than the behind the scenes raiding that was more commonly seen. The goal of behind the scenes raiding was to, at the smallest cost possible, access and seize the most valuable materials and then get out. Common building materials were rarely, if ever, touched as were tools of a tier lesser than diamond.

Now all that's left to do is armor up, invade the town, then slaughter as much as you can before ender chesting drops, if any, and committing suicide if no exit is available. Alternatively, a raider will enter the town and claim anything that can be accessed and ender chesting that before committing suicide and repeating. I would guess that most people are a little more careless with their building supplies (I know I am) due to the sheer amount of them collected and stocked and the inconvenience of making a secure location for them, and so it is building supplies that will be stolen. So while towns may now have more funds for their generator, they're not going to have much to build with. And then there's the fact that you won't have an opportunity to build to begin with because you're always under the threat of invasion and death.

Trust me when I say this: A cannon to gain entry is a rare thing. We cannon so we can walk out. No one is any safer if they do not build a maximum security wall around their town. So while I do like these changes for the most part, this is going to go very poorly if no alternatives are presented in the very immediate future.

If these changes alter how raiding happens on the server, so be it. People will learn, much like they did with cannon defense that they ought not to leave anything out in the open or face it being looted. If the threat of constant raiding and death presents itself, then people will arm themselves, build (smaller) walls, and naturally adapt. What they can't hope to adapt to is coming into a server where they have no idea who means to betray them; especially when the first people that offer their help to new towns are intended insiders. Behind the scenes raiding benefited a small few number of players and caused the dismantling of town after town.

Your threats are unappreciated and will cause no change in how quickly or not we come up with or implement alternatives.

I think the example of faction control in the nether is a little confusing.. raiders would steal stuff inside the nether? I'm sure I probably just don't understand it fully but it seems like you could just not put stuff in the nether, but like you said this just an example.

I don't get it either, Mag tried to explain it but I zoned out.

 

[Jedoi]

Actually, um, Zor, I only "helped" Psy, and, well, he was already in town. I at first didn't believe Psy about Der Riese being raided, but when hip killed Lea I went to help. Psy and Lea were both already in town, but I sorta opened doorways to where Psy wanted to go because he "knew where hip was" and he said that this cannon will "hurt hip but not the blocks" and when it blew up he "had no idea that would happen" and when he was in the vault "darn, hip had already taken the items". so, yeah.

He just used the situation as an example of someone being tricked, I don't think we're trying to decipher exactly what happened in the situation. Even if the scenario isn't accurate to what happened it's still a good example to consider.

Oh. Okay. Wait. Why am I the example of being tricked? xD

 

[Cryptite]

Didn't realize there had been so many replies and missed a few.

Also, how will you deal with cases in which a member of the town is tricked into letting a raider inside the town or a restricted area of the town? Or of a visitor to the town turning and killing citizens and stealing from chests? Would whoever let them inside be held responsible?

I'll discuss this one with Mag and Asy. In theory that tactic would (should) only work once. Insiders have the ability to open up the town time after time until they're caught (if ever), and that's a big difference.

 

[Zor95]

If these changes create a change in how raiding happens on the server, so be it. People will learn, much like they did with cannon defense that they ought not to leave anything out in the open or face it being looted. If the threat of constant raiding and death presents itself, then people will arm themselves, build smaller walls, and naturally adapt. What they can't hope to adapt to is coming into a server where they have no idea who means to betray them; especially when the first people that offer their help to new towns are intended insiders. Behind the scenes raiding benefited a small few number of players and caused the dismantling of town after town.

Your threats however are unappreciated and will cause no change in how quickly or not we come up with or implement alternatives.

These are not threats, but facts. Though I no longer raid, I still associate myself with the raiders and am very knowledgable about current raiding techniques. I agree that there is no real defense versus the many tools that were available for use and this is a good step towards a solution. However, those who choose to make a name for themselves by these means are among the best PvPers on the server and have shown time and again that they can outmaneuver any obstacle placed in their way. What's going to happen is that raiders will now strike the very foundation of a town, rather than just taking the excess. Small difference, I know, but still important. Why will this happen? Because that is the only option available at this moment.

So it is my suggestion that you open up a thread specifically dedicated to brainstorming solutions to this change and let's hope we can all agree to something quickly.

 

[JocelynReed]

[*]A minor change to rule enforcement; Xraying won't always be a 100% permaban now depending on the situation. Several of you have made good cases for giving people second chances and in line with our making Loka a little more peaceful, we intend to be a little less brutal on our punishments. For this reason, a small, select number of players have been unbanned. Those players will of course be watched closely and if they are caught again, they will be simply re-banned.[/list]

Who ya thinking of unbanning?

 

[Lazuli73]

Actually, um, Zor, I only "helped" Psy, and, well, he was already in town. I at first didn't believe Psy about Der Riese being raided, but when hip killed Lea I went to help. Psy and Lea were both already in town, but I sorta opened doorways to where Psy wanted to go because he "knew where hip was" and he said that this cannon will "hurt hip but not the blocks" and when it blew up he "had no idea that would happen" and when he was in the vault "darn, hip had already taken the items". so, yeah.

He just used the situation as an example of someone being tricked, I don't think we're trying to decipher exactly what happened in the situation. Even if the scenario isn't accurate to what happened it's still a good example to consider.

Oh. Okay. Wait. Why am I the example of being tricked? xD

Because you were, even though I wasn't there for this (or I didn't pay attention to the chat, which is normal sometimes) but based on what I just read here Psy played you as a fool, so did Jeremy (hip) and all these other players.

I agree that tricking players is a really cheap way to steal and raid, and tnt cannons can, and have over powered new towns causing them to fall. I am in favour in finders keepers, but not valuable blocks like enchanting tables or ore blocks used in builds. If you find something in a chest you like you can take it.

 

[MasterAegon]

I support the banning of insiders wholeheartedly. This tactic just has a whole new level of stank for me after a good friend stabbed me in the back. You'd think after befriending someone outside of Loka for over a year would account for something but it didn't stop them from using that to let someone else strip our storage.

As for TNT cannons, so be it. Psy has gotten in without them plenty of times. It seems to me that it only removes the ease of entry.

As far as the lingering threat of death (due to it being the only option), I don't see how it's any different than it is now. Because of how much Psy trolled us, I won't work above ground while he's on simply because I'm not wasting inventory during a build for pots and golden apples or keeping my hotbar combat ready. This puts our builds at a total stand still.

I'd like to see a nation wars system of some kind but I don't know how possible that is. People should be able to choose neutrality for their city or at least have a limit to the time another city can declare war and attack. That's a rough idea. Might be more complicated to code than what it's worth but yeah.

EDIT: minor fixes throughout the post

 

[Samwise]

I support the banning of insiders wholeheartedly. This tactic just has a whole new level of stank for me after a good friend stabbed me in the back. You think after befriendingsomeone outside of Loka would accoun for something but it didn't stop them from using that to let someone else strip our storage.

As for TNT cannons, so be it. Psy has gotten in without it plenty of times. It seem to me that it only removes the ease of entry.

As far as the lingering threat of death (due to it being the only option), I don't see how it's any different than it is now. Because of how much Psy trolled us, I won't work above ground while he's on simply because I'm not wasting inventory during a build for pots and golden apples or keeping my hotbar combat ready. This puts builds at a total stand still.

I'd like to see a nation wars system of some kind but I don't know how possible that is. People should be able to choose neutrality for their city or at least have a limit to the time another city can declare war and attack. That's a rough idea. Might be more complicated to code than what it's worth but yeah.

(sorry for any typos, I'm on mobile)

^ This

 

[Jedoi]

Sam I love your signature.

 

[andrekeroxd]

This post just blew up.

 

[Lazuli73]

I support the banning of insiders wholeheartedly. This tactic just has a whole new level of stank for me after a good friend stabbed me in the back. You think after befriendingsomeone outside of Loka would accoun for something but it didn't stop them from using that to let someone else strip our storage.

As for TNT cannons, so be it. Psy has gotten in without it plenty of times. It seem to me that it only removes the ease of entry.

As far as the lingering threat of death (due to it being the only option), I don't see how it's any different than it is now. Because of how much Psy trolled us, I won't work above ground while he's on simply because I'm not wasting inventory during a build for pots and golden apples or keeping my hotbar combat ready. This puts builds at a total stand still.

I'd like to see a nation wars system of some kind but I don't know how possible that is. People should be able to choose neutrality for their city or at least have a limit to the time another city can declare war and attack. That's a rough idea. Might be more complicated to code than what it's worth but yeah.

(sorry for any typos, I'm on mobile)

I am on Maters side with this on, he put my town owning experience in on nice neat post. Even though i am always ready for a fight wearing iron Armour and have a sword on stand by, at one point i was so paranoid about a attack i would not play if he logged on. I would just leave. He has done everything to me, nether portaling, tnt cannon, insider/member manipulation.

 

[mopb3]

This post just blew up.

I haven't even read it yet and I agree

 

[adderman500]

This is very reflective of how Minecraft's community in general is changing, and I find it very interesting. I think these new rules suit players outside of Loka very well, but personally not those who are a part of Loka now (although I guess it doesn't matter, most of the folk who will find these changes to be a bad thing are inactive anyway). I suppose we do want to expand our playerbase and get Loka nice and busy again.

Having said that raiders do need a little something extra to replace what's now missing. I made my views clear about betrayal before, and although I regret doing it myself I can't help but feel the fear of betrayal makes things a little more exciting, when you're not sure quite who to trust. A ban is too much as punishment for sure, but I could see a tempban of a week or 2 working quite nicely.

In my opinion, I think we should see what these changes bring before doing anything final.