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[Melon]

I have just recently started playing the server again (outside of duels) and have had the opportunity to experience first hand how unfair and stupidly broken KB swords still are on Loka. I had honestly thought that this would have been resolved a long time ago, as it had already seemed to be a pretty big problem on the server. I am creating this post in order to make a case for the removal of KB swords on Loka, or severely limiting them in some way, but also for those who see this issue differently than me to express their opinions and give alternate arguments or solutions.

From my point of view, there are only 2 reasonable arguments for keeping KB. These are knocking charges and (maybe) chasing kills. Requiring KB for knocking charges is understandable, as it would be extremely difficult to knock charges using only a standard sword or a bow. The other argument that I have sometimes seen given is that KB is very useful for chasing. I can understand this, as it doesn't seem fair that one person should be able to kite away from 10 with no way to catch them. Back in the day bow boosting was the simple solution to this problem, as whoever was better at it would either get away or catch the other. Before my ban I began to see the transition into KB swords being used to chase others, and I'm assuming this is how the entire "KB meta" developed in the first place. Someone realized that they could just KB people off of them whenever they needed space to pot or to refill, and there was never a reason not to. Anyways, it seems somewhat fair to have this mechanic in place now so you can't easily outrun a bunch of people. But, while KB is the solution to these issues, it also creates separate problems of its own.

KB has gone from just being used to knock charges, to being used to chase kills, to now being one of the most overly used items on Loka. Whenever someone is put in disadvantage during a fight, there is really no reason to not use KB. They have no incentive to tank the chain and try to find a way out of it (except in certain situations). This means that putting pressure on someone to get a kill is much more difficult, as all they have to do is look up once and spam click you off of them, sending you flying 10 blocks away. Once this happens all kill pressure is lost, as they can refill, reshulker, or pearl away. This issue also becomes exacerbated when fighting on any type of terrain, as once you are hit down a hill or mountain it takes even longer to get back up, and if you try to pearl they could also, immediately putting you a pearl behind. It becomes almost impossible to get or chase down kills alone, as they will only die if they qd, are at 0 pots, or they are actually so slow at refilling they can't look up to hit once. The main issue is that applying the kill pressure that would lead to them qding or not being able to refill in time is also no longer possible, as they can generate space extremely easily whenever they need to. This is the entire basis of potion pvp, and having an item counter so that it can only be accomplished sometimes isn't a viable solution in my opinion.

Both main arguments for keeping KB seem to have fairly straightforward solutions, although I don't have much of an idea how complicated it would be to actually implement them. For charges, only allowing KB around the tgen would seem to be a fair, as elytras are already disabled in certain zones (this also involves the elytras being put in a state of 0 dura so idrk if it even would work), or only allowing KB to only be used on people who are charged. The same could also be done for chasing, by only allowing KB to be used on teammates. I also have no idea if these solutions could actually be implemented, I'm just thinking of any potential way that might work.

Again, this thread is more an attempt to raise this issue for discussion, and try to gather more perspectives and arguments on this issue, especially those in support of keeping KB for generic use and why. I do not know the best way to solve this issue, I only know what I believe. KB seems to be broken, and I think it should be fixed. I look forward to seeing and debating your perspectives.

-Melon

 

[MrSuperb]

-1 Just use a shield if your taking charges, use Webbed Bolas too if you want, maybe place a cobweb down to not get hit off a cliff, its just about being creative to counter something that you have trouble with. Mechanics like these reward the innovators.

 

[berdb]

good idea, this is why we should bring back crystals

-1 Just use a shield if your taking charges, use Webbed Bolas too if you want, maybe place a cobweb down to not get hit off a cliff, its just about being creative to counter something that you have trouble with. Mechanics like these reward the innovators.

 

[Melon]

I’m about to give up I think half the people responding haven’t even read the actual post and just show up to type the same mindless -1 spam. Someone just explain how KB is actually balanced. Not why it’s ok because people still die in conquest, there are qds, a lot of people suck. Not how it’s a vanilla feature and therefore shouldn’t be removed. Not how this mechanic supposedly only concerns 1v1s and shouldn’t matter in conquest. Not how it was just removed on cove so why change more. Support it based on its merits, HOW is it fair to generate space whenever you want. No good player will ever die while using KB, unless they are getting jumped by like 3 people, and even then it’s tough lmao. This mechanic clearly isn’t fair, you all just say “well this really doesn’t matter because…” just explain to me on its face how KB really is a balanced item. Please.

 

[Greeneryy]

it's balanced coz why fight, be peaceful, you have no enemies thorfinn.

here watch this baki clip in which yujiro lays down and what muhammad ali Jr. does is he simply leaves. living another day

if your oponent is willingly pushing you away from him, then you no die, so you no die, and it's balanced cause no one dies. happy ending

streamable.com/fef4fd

 

[doota]

I’m about to give up I think half the people responding haven’t even read the actual post and just show up to type the same mindless -1 spam. Someone just explain how KB is actually balanced. Not why it’s ok because people still die in conquest, there are qds, a lot of people suck. Not how it’s a vanilla feature and therefore shouldn’t be removed. Not how this mechanic supposedly only concerns 1v1s and shouldn’t matter in conquest. Not how it was just removed on cove so why change more. Support it based on its merits, HOW is it fair to generate space whenever you want. No good player will ever die while using KB, unless they are getting jumped by like 3 people, and even then it’s tough lmao. This mechanic clearly isn’t fair, you all just say “well this really doesn’t matter because…” just explain to me on its face how KB really is a balanced item. Please.

its not that no one reads it its just that no one agrees with you

 

[Lampp_]

its not that no one reads it its just that no one agrees with you

>people read your posts
>proceeds to not read his post

 

[Lampp_]

i have read most of it and i just do not experience these problems like you do. Everyone is still able to get kills and even if i am 1v1ing someone nobody really mainhands unless they are low and trying to kite (which i do not believe should be removed)

Wait so you’re coping about the meta changing? Crystals are a broken Minecraft feature in vanilla being able to one tap anyone, shields can prevent damage while outputting with no skill and come on turtle master? You’re joking right? It literally gives the user broken resistance. Kb is not a broken vanilla feature and is just the new meta evolving and changing. Instead of boww boosting people kb boost and instead of a recruit dropping in 5 seconds they can survive and actually hold value to their team as a number.
And Kb being removed from cove was a good thing because people were able to kite with ease to docks and escape with minimal effort by just pearling around on mountains kbing people down and getting in docks. I really don’t understand the argument that “it makes killing people impossible and has no skill to refill” like just stick to them kb them from their shulker and watch their pearl and they will die either way. Armor still breaks quickly and kb doesn’t change that.

People still die in conquest, KB shouldn't be changed just cause you like taking 1v1s and expect to actually get kills from it, while KB may do an excellent job at keeping significant people more alive in conquest, a LOT of people still die lol

-1 idk what exactly ur doing differently than me in conquest but kb main handing is not that big of an issue in conquest. if you are fighting people in the middle it is a normal teamfight and i do not see how kb could be changed without massively changing conquest and probably making it 20x easier to take charges

yeah but no one is complaining besides you. even if its unfair no one cares enough to remove it because in the end of the day everyone uses it so no singular player gets an advantage. If you remove the KB the recruits will just die faster and the carries will yet again be the last ones standing

People still died with shields… did that make them balanced?

 

[Cryptite]

Ain't nobody out here callin anything in Minecraft balanced; we just try to make minor adjustments or add some counters here and there when things are really out of whack.

I’m about to give up I think half the people responding haven’t even read the actual post and just show up to type the same mindless -1 spam

It is possible to read your post and still disagree, though. Even though your position is well thought out and lengthy, that doesn't make it objectively true or unassailable.

A divided community on a feature is usually a sign that it's in a decent place.

(but also webbed bola)

 

[Melon]

Ain't nobody out here callin anything in Minecraft balanced; we just try to make minor adjustments or add some counters here and there when things are really out of whack.


It is possible to read your post and still disagree, though. Even though your position is well thought out and lengthy, that doesn't make it objectively true or unassailable.

A divided community on a feature is usually a sign that it's in a decent place.

(but also webbed bola)

I completely agree, I was more referring to me attempting to argue a point someone made, but rather than others building off of what I say in response they repeat the same point I just responded to.

Support it based on its merits, HOW is it fair to generate space whenever you want. No good player will ever die while using KB, unless they are getting jumped by like 3 people, and even then it’s tough lmao.

I am just trying to direct peoples focus to the actual mechanic, there have been like 3 replies that actually tried to validate KB as a mechanic, and they were all on the first page.

 

[bat3415]

I completely agree, I was more referring to me attempting to argue a point someone made, but rather than others building off of what I say in response they repeat the same point I just responded to.

I am just trying to direct peoples focus to the actual mechanic, there have been like 3 replies that actually tried to validate KB as a mechanic, and they were all on the first page.

People don’t have to justify KB as a mechanic to think that it works out okay in a system. Try to justify to me that your sword sets me on fire with a single tap or that your boots can turn water to ice? It’s a game, people can create space with KB because it’s a game and it’s a mechanic that Mojang decided they wanted.

With that being said, I think that people are right here, KB is kind of necessary to conquests objective plays and I think you’re looking at this through the wrong lens. KB was removed on cove because a lot of the community wanted it that way, due to the terrain and the fact that cove lends itself much more to 1v1s where KB can prolong fights to the point of ridiculousness between two skilled pvpers.

But the fact is conquest is the central feature on Loka and KB can’t be removed from it without massively changing the way everyone plays around the actual objective of conquest(which is not making K/D number go big, contrary to popular belief) which involves standing on a point without being knocked off of it.

Entire teams still get wiped in conquest fights all the time, people are still being killed despite their use of KB, I just think you may be one of the players who goes off and tries to focus a particular, good pvper on the edge of a battle zone and it is frustrating for the same reason cove KB was frustrating, but that’s cause ya ain’t playing objective.

I don’t want to be all back in my day but people used to rally their whole team and fight together and not kill chase on the edges of zone.

TLDR bring back objective playing and you’ll be fine

 

[Obstinance]

If this is such a big problem why is it just becoming an issue now? Minecraft combat surrounding KB has not changed since at least 1.9 (released in 2016!) and since then there has been much meta discovery and change in Loka, however, I think this is merely just an effect of a few people who have gotten good at learning when to use KB to avoid being killed in a fight. More power to them imo. KB is too central a feature of Minecraft to get changed (and yes, Loka does have the damage boost, but I think that is a different story because all that does is speed up combat, not fundamentally change or remove a feature in combat). If you want to come on Loka just to raw Sharp 5 no KB people in fights, you clearly misunderstand what conquest is supposed to be. There is much more to the game features that just the raw fighting tactics in conquest and the more modes of fighting, the better.

asking why kb is only an issue now is stupid, crystals were around for awhile too before people started using them in pvp more on loka and they got nerfed. turn on brain

but then again its all the people who don’t participate that think they do whats best for the community

 

[Melon]

People don’t have to justify KB as a mechanic to think that it works out okay in a system.

People still died with shields… did that make them balanced?

It’s a game, people can create space with KB because it’s a game and it’s a mechanic that Mojang decided they wanted.

Support it based on its merits, HOW is it fair to generate space whenever you want.

KB can’t be removed from it without massively changing the way everyone plays around the actual objective of conquest(which is not making K/D number go big, contrary to popular belief) which involves standing on a point without being knocked off of it.

Both main arguments for keeping KB seem to have fairly straightforward solutions, although I don't have much of an idea how complicated it would be to actually implement them. For charges, only allowing KB around the tgen would seem to be a fair, as elytras are already disabled in certain zones (this also involves the elytras being put in a state of 0 dura so idrk if it even would work), or only allowing KB to only be used on people who are charged.

Entire teams still get wiped in conquest fights all the time, people are still being killed despite their use of KB,

Well yeah, my argument is just that the skill requirement is lowered to a point where you no longer need to know how to pot to play conquest, taking away from the main feature of the server. And the argument that KB allows worse players to stay alive longer is true, but at the same time it makes better players invincible. This makes it so that in conquest, the majority of people who die in the beginning are just newer players who can't even survive with kb. There is no way to target and take out better players, you won't be able to kill them. This leads to the side with more qds just getting overwhelmed with nothing they can do about it. In an even fight the side with more newer players is basically guaranteed to lose, no matter how good their carries are. You are trying to say that taking away from the actual skill required to play the game is a good thing, which maybe I would agree with if it didn't effect the actual skill cap. But making it so that worse players have an easier time at the expense of the rest of the server isn't a good thing in my opinion.

I just think you may be one of the players who goes off and tries to focus a particular, good pvper on the edge of a battle zone and it is frustrating for the same reason cove KB was frustrating, but that’s cause ya ain’t playing objective.

Not how this mechanic supposedly only concerns 1v1s and shouldn’t matter in conquest. Not how it was just removed on cove so why change more. Support it based on its merits, HOW is it fair to generate space whenever you want.

Doesn’t only concern 1v1s, is important whenever you focus a player.

TLDR bring back objective playing and you’ll be fine

Aka don’t do anything but mindlessly crit in center, this is why we can’t alter KB.

I am just trying to direct peoples focus to the actual mechanic, there have been like 3 replies that actually tried to validate KB as a mechanic, and they were all on the first page.

People don’t have to justify KB as a mechanic to think that it works out okay in a system.

Me trying to set the discussion on the actual mechanic isn’t me trying to ignore or discredit those explaining how it works out ok in conquest. I never made the argument that it broke conquest, conquest functions fine. I’m saying that it lowers the skill ceiling, which is not GOOD for conquest, and is not fair to players in general. That is why I’m trying to focus people’s attention on KB itself, instead of them saying it’s ok because people still die. Everyone is aware of this. Basically, is KB fair, and if not how do we fix it without major alterations to conquest.

 

[Cryptite]

it lowers the skill ceiling, which is not GOOD for conquest, and is not fair to players in general

That is your opinion, but it is not one we share. Getting more people able to play Conquest and giving players some options to not be guaranteed quickdrops (which is not a fun experience for newer players or ones who are not highly-skilled pvp players).

There are a variety of places on Loka where the skill gap is narrow or wide for good reasons, and the gap should probably be the narrowest for Conquest considering the point is objective play more than big 1v1 battlefield. There are plenty of other places to 1v1 against players in more controlled conditions.

There is a reason, btw, that we continuously bring up the Webbed Bola. It is literally designed to help you get a kill against a player who would otherwise KB/Pearl to get away. Because you do not find it satisfactory doesn't mean it's useless, it's just a counter that you have access to you that you choose not to employ.

 

[Lampp_]

That is your opinion, but it is not one we share. Getting more people able to play Conquest and giving players some options to not be guaranteed quickdrops (which is not a fun experience for newer players or ones who are not highly-skilled pvp players).

There are a variety of places on Loka where the skill gap is narrow or wide for good reasons, and the gap should probably be the narrowest for Conquest considering the point is objective play more than big 1v1 battlefield. There are plenty of other places to 1v1 against players in more controlled conditions.

There is a reason, btw, that we continuously bring up the Webbed Bola. It is literally designed to help you get a kill against a player who would otherwise KB/Pearl to get away. Because you do not find it satisfactory doesn't mean it's useless, it's just a counter that you have access to you that you choose not to employ.

why not just make 2 scenarios where KB works
A) Plauer is charged
B) Player is holding a kb sword

This means that you can still kb boost and knock people charging and knock people away attempting to knock away people who are charging

 

[UghBraces]

why not just make 2 scenarios where KB works
A) Plauer is charged
B) Player is holding a kb sword

This means that you can still kb boost and knock people charging and knock people away attempting to knock away people who are charging

when knocking a charge you end up kbing all the people who are stacking on the person taking the charge. and also when you are helping a person take charges you need to kb the defenders away so the person charged gets it off.

Therefore your solution does not work.

 

[Wxndernut]

I agree that KB can be annoying, but until the objective of conquest is changed KB is just going to be something we need to deal with.

 

[berdb]

when knocking a charge you end up kbing all the people who are stacking on the person taking the charge. and also when you are helping a person take charges you need to kb the defenders away so the person charged gets it off.

Therefore your solution does not work.

make kb only work near tgen and inhib (if thats even possible)

 

[TgsHalo]

I think just making kb not do any damage would be the best solution

 

[Obstinance]

I think just making kb not do any damage would be the best solution

make a soulbound kb stick for conquest and create a quest to get it too

 

[Cryptite]

make a soulbound kb stick for conquest and create a quest to get it too

requires parkour